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openSUSE:Testing meeting 20091008

tagline: From openSUSE

Agenda

  1. Available Hardware
  2. Test Automation
  3. Sub-teams/Areas of concentration
  4. Factory vs. Factory-Snapshot
  5. Schedule next meeting


Transcript

[19:59:53] <LWFinger> I know the Broadcom firmware is a problem. openSUSE has the same kind of script - it just isn't automatically invoked. [20:00:02] <LWFinger> Hi Holgi [20:00:08] <Holgi> hi everybody [20:00:10] <MrKane> Where is that script in 11.2? [20:00:17] <MrKane> Hi. [20:00:35] <MrKane> I only found the FW cutter and that is not userfriendly. [20:00:36] <jradzuweit> hi [20:00:41] <poletti> hi [20:00:47] <CzP> hello [20:00:50] --- Received a CTCP VERSION from freenode-connect [20:00:59] <badshah> MrKane: packman had broadcom-wl packages also, which work immediately after install, no? [20:01:10] --> CupRacer (n=thomas@static.17.115.40.188.clients.your-server.de) has joined #opensuse-testing [20:01:28] --> estellnb (n=elm@91-114-228-38.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #opensuse-testing [20:01:42] <LWFinger> The script in in /usr/sbin/install_bcm43xx_firmware - the same place it was in 11.1. It downloads the files and cuts the firmware. [20:02:00] <olli> hey [20:02:05] <Holgi> ok, should we wait until 18:05 UTC for ppl being late? [20:02:20] <LWFinger> The problem with the wl package is that it taints the kernel. I keep mine pristine. [20:02:21] <MrKane> Thanks LWFinger [20:02:34] <estellnb> don`t we have a meeting now? [20:02:39] <bmwiedemann> we do [20:03:05] <bmwiedemann> welcome to the Core Testing Team meeting (about to start in 80 secs) [20:03:40] <MrKane> I really do not care much about tainting the kernel. For me it's up to the owner of the SW how it should be distributed. I respect their wish [20:04:35] <badshah> MrKane: so you can try installing the broadcom-wl package from packman, not sure if it available for 11.2 though [20:04:40] <LWFinger> I do kernel debugging on the wireless-testing and Linus trees. A tainted kernel is the kiss of death there. [20:04:52] <MrKane> That said, I prefer open licenses. [20:05:00] <Holgi> great - Bernhard will you lead the meeting? [20:05:16] <bmwiedemann> if you like me to. [20:05:20] <MrKane> thx badshah [20:05:22] <bmwiedemann> warm welcome everyone [20:05:31] <thomas_> thanks [20:05:41] <CupRacer> Hi @all! [20:05:54] <bmwiedemann> I'd propose to leave out as many details as possible and concentrate on the core issues that are hard to discuss on mailinglists [20:06:22] <estellnb> so what would you regard as core issues? [20:06:23] <Holgi> good idea! [20:06:38] <bmwiedemann> One big question, not only I seem to have is about the testopia is how to properly use it. [20:06:51] <bmwiedemann> some URL for a quickstarter/howto would be nice for later. [20:07:11] <jradzuweit> that's true [20:07:13] <Holgi> what about creating kind of agenda? let's collect topics?! [20:07:23] <jradzuweit> testopia handling is a little odd [20:07:28] <thomas_> yes it is [20:07:44] <thomas_> newcomers need some instructions [20:08:01] <jradzuweit> what about the agenda from the wiki? [20:08:07] <estellnb> there have been some errors in testtopia but I think they have already been corrected. [20:08:22] --> srinidhi (n=srinidhi@opensuse/member/srinidhi) has joined #opensuse-testing [20:09:19] <Holgi> jradzuweit: you mean the Discussion section? [20:09:23] <bmwiedemann> http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Testing_Core_Team#Discussion [20:09:35] <estellnb> Testtopia is quite useful for testing I think [20:09:42] <MrKane> How should we use Testopia? Pick test cases in existing plans? Make test cases and make our own plans? [20:10:03] <jradzuweit> right [20:10:15] <estellnb> pick test cases if you don`t have anything more important in mind [20:10:41] <estellnb> with regards to my own experience I always keep having some unfiled bugs in mind [20:10:48] <Holgi> that would be: [20:10:50] <Holgi> * Available Hardware [20:10:50] <Holgi> * Test Automation [20:10:50] <Holgi> * Sub-teams/Areas of concentration [20:10:50] <Holgi> * Factory vs. Factory-Snapshot [20:10:50] <Holgi> * Preliminary Roadmap for 11.3 [20:10:50] <Holgi> * Schedule next meeting [20:11:03] <estellnb> ... many of them of higher importance than most Testtopia issues. [20:11:28] <MrKane> Ok lets take it from the top then [20:11:29] <Holgi> let's add * Testopia [20:12:17] <bmwiedemann> OK. so we would start with "Available Hardware" [20:12:34] <bmwiedemann> there have been some lists on the testing mailinglist [20:12:36] <Holgi> what I would like to hear what everybody expects to be our next steps [20:12:51] <Holgi> bmwiedemann: can we add that somehow as well? [20:12:55] <LWFinger> I know I posted my "available hardware" someplace, but I don't remember where. Has this been summarized? [20:13:10] <estellnb> we have already tested the hw by simply installing OS 11.2, I think. [20:13:11] <jradzuweit> not from me yet [20:13:27] <estellnb> - and there currently seems to be no more support for addon hw. [20:13:32] <jradzuweit> so we had some discussion about this on the mailing list [20:13:42] <CupRacer> What about putting the hardware info somewhere below of the "contacts page" (http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Testing_Core_Team)? [20:13:43] --- Notify: theo is online (orwell.freenode.net). [20:14:05] <jradzuweit> someone suggested to use the smolt profiles [20:14:16] <bmwiedemann> I think, we should not clutter up that page too much. smolt is cool [20:14:31] <MrKane> I'm not sure that's a good idea. I have a few pieces being used. [20:14:48] <MrKane> So how should we then use smolt? [20:14:58] <bmwiedemann> smolt example public page: http://www.smolts.org/show?uuid=pub_c5345625-52df-4d29-9f31-acb6df810402 [20:14:59] <jradzuweit> we could add the ID of the smolt profile to a bug report [20:15:07] <bmwiedemann> there is a openSUSE package for smolt [20:15:11] <jradzuweit> this should be ok for now, or? [20:15:18] --> AJaeger_away (n=aj@port-92-194-21-153.dynamic.qsc.de) has joined #opensuse-testing [20:15:33] <CupRacer> Is it running without a GUI? [20:15:39] <bmwiedemann> yes. it can [20:15:43] <jradzuweit> Cupracer: yes [20:15:43] <CupRacer> OK [20:15:47] <MrKane> Well that only clears things for bugs, what about if special HW is needed for some tests? [20:16:10] <jradzuweit> we can derive this info from the profiles too [20:16:18] <MrKane> How could we find that, can the HW profile be added to Testopia? [20:17:00] <estellnb> do we really have any pending test for special hw?? [20:17:07] <Holgi> question: what - beside adding to a bugreport - will help us to know which hardware everybody has? [20:17:08] <poletti> It gathers only infos for connected peripherals, but one might have unconnected, yet available ones. [20:17:21] <MrKane> I know there are tests for Netbooks. [20:17:25] <jradzuweit> there is a enviroment section in testopia [20:17:50] <estellnb> we don`t really need to know the hw of everyone, do we. [20:17:50] <jradzuweit> it contains only x86, but can be expaned [20:17:54] <MrKane> There are certanly tests for different drive interfaces? SCSI/SAS/SATE? [20:18:21] <bmwiedemann> Holgi: one could look for a tester with certain hardware. e.g. someone who has Broadcom WLAN to test new xxx script [20:18:46] <MrKane> It's also needed to test different chip sets, gfx sets and so forth. [20:18:52] <Holgi> bmwiedemann: to assign tests? [20:19:01] <bmwiedemann> for example. [20:19:08] <MrKane> agreed [20:19:49] <Holgi> so we need a place where we link all our profiles, right? [20:19:58] --> RSeete (i=c01eca1d@gateway/web/freenode/x-rwuxkzeuchawgiqi) has joined #opensuse-testing [20:20:04] <bmwiedemann> yes [20:20:10] <Holgi> I don't think Testopia would be the right place [20:20:14] <bmwiedemann> a sub-page on the Wiki? [20:20:27] <AJaeger_away> with links to profiles on smolts.org? [20:20:37] <MrKane> I would prefer that it was connected toTestopia. I have used similar systems (non free) in my work and it's nice to have the test configuration available. [20:20:38] <bmwiedemann> http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Testing_Core_Team/Hardware [20:20:39] <Holgi> wiki is a better approach [20:20:42] <Holgi> aj: yes [20:20:58] <jradzuweit> I mean the environment tab in testopia [20:21:35] <estellnb> hmm, some utility where you upload your smolt profile on installation/by request linking it with the bugzilla account would be nice in order to query who has the reuquired hw. [20:21:47] <CupRacer> Some space for adding free text and comments would be nice. I've some available hardware at home, but I could also use some other machine types at work. But I don't want to list all hardware with smolt profiles. [20:21:48] <estellnb> then anyone could be asked directly to do some test. [20:22:35] <estellnb> free text & comments - what for; don`t we have the mailing list and the wiki pages? [20:22:51] <MrKane> Hmm.. I'm not allowed to add new environments in Testopia. :-) [20:22:52] <Holgi> the environment in Testopia is meant for a complete testrun [20:22:59] <MrKane> Ah.. [20:23:12] <Holgi> that would mean someone would have to test the whole testrun then on his own [20:23:26] <jradzuweit> mmmmh [20:23:35] <MrKane> bummer. [20:23:35] <bmwiedemann> due to limited time, we got to get to the next topic soon. I'd say we fill http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Testing_Core_Team/Hardware with links to smolts profile and optional plain text about hardware. We can also add smolts links to bug-reports. [20:23:53] <CupRacer> estellnb: So why should we list our hardware at all? Everyone can ask us via mailing list... [20:23:57] <estellnb> one last questionä [20:24:02] <jradzuweit> agreed [20:24:03] <MrKane> Sorry, won't do. I will not put it public. [20:24:18] <bmwiedemann> MrKane: it is fully optional [20:24:19] <CupRacer> bmwiedemann: This sounds fine. [20:24:19] <estellnb> how to access ones smolt profile from installation. [20:24:23] <Holgi> MrKane: nobody has to [20:24:30] <estellnb> via YaST? [20:24:34] <poletti> bmwiedemann: ok [20:24:54] <Holgi> bmwiedemann: what's next? [20:25:03] <bmwiedemann> Test Automation [20:25:17] <bmwiedemann> important thing. can improve development AND testing a lot [20:25:31] <estellnb> do we really need it? [20:25:59] <MrKane> Oh yes! [20:25:59] <bmwiedemann> not for everything [20:26:07] <-- ingvildr has quit ("Page closed") [20:26:12] <bmwiedemann> but imagine, pressing a big "start" button and getting the result: 153/154 tests passed OK. [20:26:15] <estellnb> It will take time to automate a test and to learn about automation facilities. [20:26:44] <estellnb> I think we should address the quality issue of Opensuse at the developers level [20:26:56] <badshah> I dont understand test-automation, is there a link or something I can refer about this? [20:27:04] <olli> estellnb: it typically is well invested time [20:27:17] <bmwiedemann> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_automation [20:27:39] <estellnb> If we have many testers investing little time then it may be an overload. [20:28:19] <estellnb> The most annoying thing is to my mind: [20:28:45] <estellnb> that many errors happen by developers that should not happen at all. [20:29:02] <estellnb> f.i.: I can not load any kernel modules with MS8 x86_64 [20:29:12] <jradzuweit> badshah: http://www.opensourcetesting.org/ [20:29:39] <estellnb> ... and that is just the same bug that has already been there on the livecd of x86_64, MS6/7 (don`t remember) [20:29:46] <-- AJaeger has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) [20:29:56] <MrKane> To achieve excellent quality in a system as huge as openSUSE, we need to do loads of tests and even more regression tests. Tha only way to achieve that is automation or massive parallel work from testers (the open source way :-) ) [20:30:08] <Holgi> ok, test automation is an important thing - but what to discuss now? [20:30:23] <jradzuweit> holgi: how to start [20:30:30] <AJaeger_away> estellnb: What? No kernel modules loading? Works fine on my x86-64 machines... Which bugnumber is this? [20:30:35] <LWFinger> estelinb: What is the problem? I can load modules just fine in x86_64. [20:30:37] --- AJaeger_away is now known as AJaeger [20:30:56] <estellnb> ... and If I pick an issue from testtopia I can be 65% sure that it will contain a bug or an inmature feature. [20:31:10] <bmwiedemann> Holgi: we could look for a "chief of automated openSUSE testing". any volunteers? [20:31:20] <badshah> question is, for 11.2 is there still time to set up automation? [20:31:25] <estellnb> - haven`t filed this bug [20:31:40] <estellnb> ... thought another one would do it. [20:31:48] <jradzuweit> badshah: no I don't think so, this is a long term issue [20:31:52] <MrKane> I thnk we use 11.2 as a proving ground for 11.3. [20:31:58] <estellnb> ... I keep having so many unfiled bugs in mind; all the time [20:32:01] <AJaeger> estellnb: Since it works for everybody else, nobody filed it;) [20:32:01] <MrKane> regarding testing [20:32:10] <estellnb> there are simply too many of them. [20:32:20] <Holgi> estellnb: current topic: test automation! [20:32:50] <estellnb> If we have any possibility to improve the quality awareness of developers [20:32:53] <LWFinger> If the Testing Team doesn't file bug reports, who will? [20:33:05] <estellnb> then we should do something about it I believe. [20:33:13] <badshah> ok, i get it. but for now shouldn't it be better to just keep ourselves to testing 11.2 and take up automation related discussions after 11.2 hits gold? [20:33:23] <jradzuweit> I would suggest to postpone this topic [20:33:28] <MrKane> Ok [20:33:30] <bmwiedemann> OK [20:33:35] <CupRacer> OK [20:33:40] <LWFinger> OK [20:33:41] <bmwiedemann> so what topic to discuss next? [20:33:51] <jradzuweit> subteams [20:34:15] <bmwiedemann> can you elaborate on that? [20:34:18] <badshah> subteams/concentration on specific tasks is possibly most important now in the context of 11.2 [20:34:46] <jradzuweit> It depends of how we should work, I think [20:34:56] <Holgi> are there already suggestions? [20:34:57] <jradzuweit> there are several possibilities [20:34:59] <estellnb> so what are our subareas to concentrate on? [20:35:03] <RSeete> Yes. This will happen somewhat naturally depending on our interests. But it would be good to have an idea what the division is. If we have 22/25 looking at KDE only...that's a problem. [20:35:11] <badshah> we should try to break ourselves up into smaller teams that can specialise on a particular genre of topic for testing: eg: zypper team, etc. [20:35:53] <bmwiedemann> teams of 2-4 often work well because communication-overhead is not too big. [20:36:00] <LWFinger> Wireless certainly needs extra testing. [20:36:05] <MrKane> I'm mostly interested in Yast and especially around home servers/networking. [20:36:30] <jradzuweit> I don't care really [20:36:33] <CupRacer> There should exist a list whith categories then, where everyone can add him-/herself. [20:36:49] <badshah> broadly: installation/zypper, gnome, kde, wireless, sound+flash etc, Yast [20:37:07] <CupRacer> So we can see where testing deficits could appear. [20:37:13] <RSeete> Those are probably good categories for now. [20:37:16] <bmwiedemann> I do laptop-testing: powersave, suspend, hibernate etc [20:37:30] <badshah> laptop too [20:37:31] <estellnb> everyone should do hw testing [20:37:37] <Holgi> so areas need to be defined? [20:37:39] <estellnb> everyone who has a laptop [20:37:55] <badshah> hw testing is sort of general for all, i think [20:38:02] <thomas_> True [20:38:11] <jradzuweit> yes [20:38:17] <MrKane> What test cases and how do we trach which HW has been tested :-) [20:38:47] <estellnb> by the uploaded smolt profiles: this hw should be tested [20:39:06] <LWFinger> Laptop problems in power, suspend, etc. are very vendor specific. That is where HW profiles are important. [20:39:11] <RSeete> Well if we all take care to fill in the HCL then that should be enough, no? [20:39:25] <jradzuweit> maybe we can create some matrix from the smolt profiles [20:39:31] <MrKane> HCL? [20:39:32] <estellnb> a query would be handy [20:39:50] <CupRacer> MarKane: Hardware compatibility list [20:40:10] <thomas_> I don't think we need to document HW that works, only HW that doesn't work needs to be documented [20:40:12] <estellnb> yes - and someone should add the current hw compatibility list. [20:40:28] <estellnb> NO; if someone planns to use Linux [20:40:40] <estellnb> he must know what hw to by. [20:40:46] <MrKane> yes. [20:40:48] <estellnb> buy [20:40:59] <thomas_> Then they can look if their hardware isn't "supported" [20:41:02] <bmwiedemann> I wrote a stub for organizing sub-teams: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Testing_Core_Team/Subteams [20:41:20] <bmwiedemann> (we still got to link it on the main team page) [20:41:27] <jradzuweit> we need both, what works and what does not work [20:41:40] <poletti> Not seeing their HW doesn't mean that it does work; [20:41:48] <poletti> noone could have tested it yet. [20:41:54] <thomas_> true [20:41:58] <RSeete> The HCL covers both working/not working + work arounds. [20:42:09] <RSeete> The problem is that it's a mess. [20:42:13] <estellnb> can anyone help me in accessing my smolt profile? [20:42:37] <estellnb> yes, we need a database to query for hw. [20:43:02] <badshah> bmwiedemann: I will work on the wiki page and add members to the subteams if that is ok [20:43:16] <jradzuweit> smoltSendProfie [20:43:25] <badshah> It will be noce to figure out the subteam members here though, based on interests [20:43:27] <estellnb> so I will get added rather than adding myself [20:43:29] <estellnb>  ? [20:43:59] <bmwiedemann> I'd say Opt-in: people add themselves [20:44:11] <CupRacer> bmwiedemann: ACK [20:44:15] <poletti> bmwiedemann: Yes, it's better [20:44:39] <LWFinger> bmwiedemann: I agree. [20:44:54] <bmwiedemann> of course, my topic list is open for extension... we should probably add that as note below it. [20:44:59] <jradzuweit> estellnb: smoltSendProfie -p [20:45:08] <estellnb> thx. [20:45:21] <badshah> yes opt-in is good, but good to do so at the meeting [20:45:21] <MrKane> I'm in [20:45:46] <badshah> instead of at the wiki-page directly [20:46:07] <MrKane> http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Testing_Core_Team/Subteams is updated [20:46:09] <estellnb> let us think about it at the end of the meeting - instead of waiting now for all to select. [20:46:36] <poletti> estellnb: Yes, wiki is not concurrent [20:46:59] <estellnb> ok, then what about: Factory vs. Factory-Snapshot [20:47:04] <bmwiedemann> I'd say, we should move on to the next point soon. "when shall we meet next?" I'd propose in one or two weeks, same place, same time. [20:47:19] <badshah> estellnb: ok at the end of the meeting we will make a call for members to join different subteams [20:47:25] <bmwiedemann> because some people might have to leave soon (original timeframe was 1h) [20:47:58] <poletti> bmwiedemann: why we don't use doodle again? [20:47:58] --> RSeete_ (i=c01eca1d@gateway/web/freenode/x-bsbmfcvzgpdfkxwl) has joined #opensuse-testing [20:48:04] <badshah> bmwiedemann: ok [20:48:11] <-- RSeete has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) [20:48:13] <Holgi> two weeks would be otc, 24th [20:48:22] <Holgi> oct, 24th [20:48:35] <MrKane> ok for me [20:48:38] <bmwiedemann> Thu, oct 22th? [20:48:50] <LWFinger> 1 wk would be out, but 2 works for me. [20:48:57] <Holgi> sorry, you are right! [20:49:18] <jradzuweit> bmwiedemann: ok, same time same place =;-) [20:49:26] <poletti> bmwiedemann: ok for me [20:49:46] <bmwiedemann> OK. so 2009-10-24 18:00 UTC again. [20:49:54] <CupRacer> bmwiedemann: ok for me, too. [20:49:56] <bmwiedemann> so now, what about: Factory vs. Factory-Snapshot [20:50:01] <estellnb> Factory vs. Factory-Snapshot - what does it mean? [20:50:04] <badshah> bmwiedemann: fine [20:50:17] <RSeete_> Sorry that should be Milestones [20:50:21] <estellnb> we need both, don`t we? [20:50:26] <badshah> estellnb: milestiones vs snapshots] [20:50:28] <bmwiedemann> err. had a typo: 2009-10-22 18:00 UTC again. [20:50:44] --- Notify: theo is offline (orwell.freenode.net). [20:50:45] <RSeete_> Factory-snapshot is a lagging build for devs. [20:51:05] <badshah> estellnb: but it may not be possible for one to test both [20:51:05] <estellnb> I will post the date of the next meeting at qa.elstel.com. [20:51:16] <poletti> RSeete_: Does it mean it's only updated on Milestones, or what? [20:51:43] <RSeete_> Right. We can test Factory as a rolling distro...or we can focus on the Milestones/RC/GMs as they come [20:51:43] <MrKane> Why should we use Factory? Is not the MS builds meant for a stable test point? [20:51:49] <badshah> poletti: Factory snapshot is updated much mre frequently [20:51:56] <estellnb> If I add me to group X I will test X from factory and the rest from milestone - or so? [20:52:25] <estellnb> That would make sense, wouldn`t it? [20:52:26] <jradzuweit> RSeete_: I think this would be the best [20:52:36] <RSeete_> There's no reason why we cannot do both, however it would be nice for the developers to know where our efforts will be. [20:52:38] <bmwiedemann> somtimes factory packages can be rather unstable. firefox crashing on HTML5 video and the like. [20:53:03] <RSeete_> Yes, Factory will involve encountering more obvious bugs. [20:53:06] <estellnb> firefox not letting add bookmarks [20:53:12] <AJaeger> with RC1, factory should not be unstable anymore... [20:53:13] <estellnb> - more important in my regard. [20:53:16] <jradzuweit> this would be a lot of work if we test snapshots [20:53:28] <estellnb> why? [20:53:37] <MrKane> I'd rather stay on the MS builds for now. I might put aside one machine for Factory if it's really needed. [20:53:39] <RSeete_> AJaeger: Yes for now. But when 11.3 starts up, then we'll have an issue on our hands. [20:53:42] <AJaeger> And we plan to release every package that goes into to factory as Online Update - we're in deep freeze starting with RC1 [20:53:49] <bmwiedemann> Factory has the big benefit of being able to test bugfixes before the next MS/RC [20:53:51] <badshah> bmwiedemann: would it not be good to have a majority of us test on the MS and a small team test on the factory so that the two teams can coordinate among themselves? [20:53:53] <AJaeger> RSeete_: Yes, at that time for sure. [20:54:09] <LWFinger> I have only tested snapshots when working with a dev to fix a bug. That is valuable. [20:54:30] <jradzuweit> maybe we test on a snapshot by request of the dev team? [20:55:01] <estellnb> maybe the ms releases should be more stable [20:55:03] <MrKane> badshah: could be a good option if really needed. To many on Factory will only waste time. Many will hit the same bug. [20:55:06] --> elchevive1968_ (i=c95b0f02@gateway/web/freenode/x-ubrdicpqrdbsjouv) has joined #opensuse-testing [20:55:08] <Holgi> my approach would be: testing factory automated and milestones manually [20:55:15] <estellnb> I know a kernel developer who has said good bye to Opensuse [20:55:23] <bmwiedemann> Holgi: I agree [20:55:27] <RSeete_> Holgi: Sounds like a good idea. [20:55:40] <MrKane> Holgi: I agree [20:55:43] <estellnb> ... just because there was no hw accelaration for the radeonhd on a ms8. [20:56:14] <jradzuweit> Holgi: good idea [20:56:43] <MrKane> So "Preliminary Roadmap for 11.3" ? [20:56:44] <LWFinger> Kernel devs will do what they want. We need to have good communications with openSUSE devs. How? [20:56:53] <estellnb> for the future; if we don`t have autoamted tests yet [20:57:01] <badshah> let's just have a small team (~3) for factory-snapshots testing too for 11.2 [20:57:04] <Holgi> estellnb: right - for the future [20:57:30] <Holgi> badshah: what do you mean by that? test installation every day? [20:58:04] <bmwiedemann> Holgi: this is perfectly possible with VMs. probably there is way to have it automated [20:58:18] <Holgi> right - but that would mean a lot of work/time to be spent [20:58:41] <estellnb> noone will do it ... [20:58:42] <badshah> Holgi: a team of snapshot testers would not test installations, but they could very well test zypper dup for example and other applications, etc. [20:58:46] <Holgi> which we cannot spend into other areas [20:58:56] <RSeete_> I have just setup a partition for Factory so I can look at Factory updates periodically. [20:59:32] <badshah> importantly, if factory contains a bug-fix for a bug in a MS, then the factory team can test it out before the next ms comes out [20:59:32] <MrKane> Holgi: Thats quite easy to automate installation test as long as there is a DVD image. I use the Instalaltion server together with tftp servers to reinstall fast. Hopefully I will get AutoYast up and running to test even more easily. [20:59:52] <Holgi> MrKane: that's again automated then ;-) [20:59:57] <bmwiedemann> well. there is no point in manually testing the same thing every day. usually the result will be that it is still as "working" or "not working" as the day before [21:00:16] <badshah> i do zypper dup every time a factory snapshot is ready, for example [21:00:48] <MrKane> Holgi : how to you make the message thae way you just did? (framed , yellow background?) [21:01:38] <MrKane> So I try again "Preliminary Roadmap for 11.3" ? [21:01:47] <badshah> for the next month or so, there will be only two Rc's. It is important that we test out factory snapshots in between them for 11.2 to be as free of bug as possible [21:02:25] <RSeete_> Right. Once 11.2 is GM. We should set up our automation and see if we need to re-organise our sub-teams [21:02:26] <bmwiedemann> Preliminary Roadmap for 11.3 should probably contain something about "automated testing" [21:02:58] <RSeete_> At that stage we will also need committments around Factory vs. Milestones. [21:03:44] <bmwiedemann> but what else? [21:04:02] <MrKane> What is the estimated release date of 11.3? [21:04:21] <bmwiedemann> 2010-07 ? [21:04:25] <Holgi> MrKane: date of 11.2 + 8 month [21:04:33] <AJaeger> The thursday before the 15th of July 2010 [21:04:34] <MrKane> thx. [21:04:37] <jradzuweit> bmwiedemann: regression testing? [21:04:50] <bmwiedemann> yep. would be good. [21:05:14] <MrKane> Could we get a focus on usability testing? A focus on what makes the distro usable for non geeks? [21:05:21] <jradzuweit> i think simulate the end user would be a good focus, or? [21:05:42] <MrKane> Fast boot times, suspend/resume, easy stable backup etc. [21:05:42] <bmwiedemann> regression testing could be combined with automated testing. As actual bugs are well described and might occur again. [21:07:06] <bmwiedemann> MrKane: I know something about usability. it is about having programs provide helpful messages to users: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=533601#c8 [21:07:10] <bugbot> openSUSE bug 533601 in openSUSE 11.2 (YaST2) "Live-Installation on Blank Hard Drive Fails" [Normal,Reopened] [21:07:15] <jradzuweit> bmwiedemann: yes and derive test cases from bugzilla [21:07:26] <bmwiedemann> yes [21:08:06] <jradzuweit> puuuuh, lots of work [21:08:20] <estellnb> concerning usability - what about the vital issues initiative [21:08:38] <estellnb> add usability flaws to the vital issues sections as I suggested [21:08:48] <MrKane> Can you elaborate? [21:08:50] <jradzuweit> brb [21:08:55] <estellnb> and hazardous bugs to most annoying bugs as before [21:09:13] <estellnb> http://en.opensuse.org/Bugs:Vital_Issues_11.2_dev [21:09:37] <bmwiedemann> you mean bugs/issues, that "have an easy workaround" so that they would be classified "minor" in bugzilla? [21:09:51] <MrKane> A point that my kids is nagging about is of course social networking and games. Probably the most important issues :-) [21:10:26] <bmwiedemann> anyone tested games on 11.2, yet? [21:10:27] <estellnb> issues of high priority that are very important to users [21:10:42] <AJaeger> Bugs should be handled by priority - so first all P1 bugs, then P2 - and a minor bug can be P1 ;) [21:10:44] <MrKane> bmwiedemann: sorry, not yet [21:10:49] <AJaeger> bmwiedemann: ksudoku only [21:10:57] <MrKane> Is there games available :-D [21:11:00] <estellnb> can`t test games because neither fglrx nor radeonhd work at the moment for me. [21:11:03] <bmwiedemann> we all know that MICROS~1 Windows only became so important because it had Solitaire and other games ;) [21:11:19] <MrKane> Is the Nvidia and ATI drivers available? [21:11:30] <estellnb> yes; what about tuxracer & neverball [21:11:35] <AJaeger> I've seen today the Vital_Issues for the first time. Is this linked from the Most Annoying Bug page? [21:11:42] <estellnb> tucracer has already almost been support [21:11:44] <estellnb> ed [21:11:45] <bmwiedemann> yes [21:12:12] <estellnb> for neverball hw accelaration of radeonhd has always been to slow [21:12:18] * AJaeger just checks - wiki says nothing links to it. how should anybody find the page? [21:12:29] <estellnb> and google earth does not fully work with it [21:12:36] <kayo> i put on bugzilla one bug for tetravex on 11.1, https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=528093 [21:12:38] <estellnb> what page? [21:12:41] <bugbot> openSUSE bug 528093 in openSUSE 11.1 (GNOME) "Tetravex infinity loop when you Win the game." [Minor,New] [21:13:11] <AJaeger> estellnb: http://en.opensuse.org/Bugs:Vital_Issues_11.2_dev - nobody knows about the page and nobody will find it since nothing links to it. [21:13:26] <AJaeger> estellnb: So either make it known - or delete it [21:13:31] <RSeete_> http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Bugs:Most_Annoying_Bugs_11.2_dev - links to the Vital Issues page [21:13:37] * AJaeger prefers the first alternative if done properly... [21:13:53] <AJaeger> RSeete_: MMh, then our wiki is broken ;-( [21:13:53] <bmwiedemann> it is not a wiki link [21:14:01] <bmwiedemann> will fix [21:14:03] <estellnb> mhm; someone has deleted my link from most annoying bugs [21:14:22] <Holgi> aj: http://en.opensuse.org/Bugs:Most_Annoying_Bugs_11.2_dev links to it [21:14:33] <estellnb> how can we detain others from deleting our content. [21:14:35] <AJaeger> The link is there - I found it now... [21:14:50] * AJaeger curses Mediawiki ;( [21:15:02] <estellnb> .. but the second link has been deleted; will add it again. [21:15:12] <RSeete_> Just moved, internet at house not set-up. About to be booted from library computer. Will read the rest of the transscript. Good meeting, and good day! [21:15:16] <MrKane> estellnb: on a wiki.... you can't if you wan't it to be a collaboarative wiki. [21:16:03] <estellnb> I would at least expect to be notified via email if someone deletes my content [21:16:18] <jradzuweit> back [21:16:19] <estellnb> ... and I wanna know who it is and why he deletes my entries. [21:16:24] <Holgi> ok, can I get some quick feedback on Testopia issues - so I can prepare something for 22 Oct? [21:16:32] --- kayo is now known as k[off] [21:16:37] <AJaeger> bmwiedemann is right - it's not an interwiki link but a full URL. I'll fix the page now... [21:16:38] <Holgi> what is not clear? [21:16:48] <bmwiedemann> AJaeger: I already did. [21:16:58] <AJaeger> bmwiedemann: Thanks! [21:16:58] <MrKane> Can we get some training material? How is it expected to be used, test automation script examples? [21:17:33] <Holgi> MrKane: ok [21:17:45] <bmwiedemann> me, too. [21:17:49] <Holgi> anything else? [21:18:06] <LWFinger> That will be a start. [21:18:12] <-- RSeete_ has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) [21:18:45] <CupRacer> Holgi: It's okay for now, I think. [21:18:47] <badshah> testopia manual is something we might want to read by the next meeting https://bugzilla.novell.com/testopia/doc/Manual.pdf [21:19:14] <LWFinger> Thanks for that link. [21:19:21] <thomas_> Thanks [21:19:23] <jradzuweit> where to record results [21:19:34] <estellnb> of the meeting? [21:19:56] <estellnb> I will put a summary of the meeting online at [21:19:57] <jradzuweit> no test results [21:20:06] <badshah> jradzuweit: testopia results are recorded in the testopia reports [21:20:17] <AJaeger> estellnb: I fixed your last edit on the Most Annoying Bug page, please use interwiki links... [21:20:19] <estellnb> qa.elstel.com (so that noone can delete it) [21:20:23] <badshah> there is osme information of this in the manual I linked above [21:20:38] <estellnb> ok; thx. [21:21:57] <AJaeger> estellnb: Could you rename "OpenSUSE" to "openSUSE" on qa.elstel.com, please? [21:22:02] <badshah> jradzuweit: and if you run a test, and encounter problems you can mark the test "failed" and report bugs to bugzilla from testopia itself [21:22:18] <estellnb> of course; if that matters, [21:22:29] <AJaeger> estellnb: And use "openSUSE" everywhere else this way - this is the correct spelling... [21:22:34] <jradzuweit> badshah: thx, I will have a look into the manual [21:22:39] <AJaeger> estellnb: Yes, it matters to me. Thanks! [21:22:40] <MrKane> Is there a Novell contact that we can use to ask some questins on Testopia? [21:23:00] <Holgi> <--- [21:23:50] <MrKane> ok, yhx [21:23:58] <MrKane> ok, thx.. :-) [21:24:07] <Holgi> MrKane: got it ;-) [21:24:40] <estellnb>  ? [21:24:45] <estellnb>  ? [21:24:48] <estellnb> .? [21:24:50] <bmwiedemann> linked the two new sub-pages on top of http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Testing_Core_Team [21:25:07] * AJaeger is happy that with the interwiki links "what links here" works again... [21:26:40] <bmwiedemann> so this very much leaves us with only one more topic remaining on the agenda: Holgi would like to hear what everybody expects to be our next steps... [21:26:49] <CzP> smolt links at http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Testing_Core_Team/Hardware don't seem to work :-( [21:27:11] <MrKane> bmwiedemann: to test and get good with the system and tools. [21:27:12] <Holgi> bmwiedemann: is there enought time to cover this today? [21:27:22] <Holgi> bmwiedemann: or better postpone to next meeting? [21:27:25] <badshah> Once we have an idea of the subteams formed, it might be useful to post to the corresponding ml's informing them about the subteam and asking if there is something specific they would want the subteam to do [21:27:45] <bmwiedemann> Czp: seems to be temporary on the smolts.org server. [21:28:26] <bmwiedemann> Holgi: I'd say: we close in five minutes. [21:28:38] <Holgi> bmwiedemann: ok [21:28:51] <estellnb> what about the unstability of radeonhd? [21:28:55] <bmwiedemann> my idea is to go on manual testing for now. maybe I look some more into testopia [21:29:03] <bmwiedemann> find a team [21:29:09] <bmwiedemann> err subteam [21:29:20] <Holgi> ok [21:29:29] <estellnb> shouldn`t we prevent versions where f.i. hw accelaration does not work to get into RC1? [21:30:05] <bmwiedemann> estellnb: can we stay on topic for 5 mins? [21:30:07] <MrKane> estellnb: sounds sensible [21:30:12] <estellnb> as already said: I know a kernel developer who has switched from MS8 to Ubuntu because that did not work. [21:30:31] <CupRacer> Just for my understanding: Is it allowed to add some more subteams? [21:30:36] <bmwiedemann> sure [21:30:56] <bmwiedemann> CupRacer: best add a "add your idea here" note at the bottom when you edit it [21:31:08] <estellnb> so we need some of us to test radeonhd from factory to verify that a certain version works all right [21:31:22] <estellnb> only verified versions should be considered for RC1! [21:31:29] <CupRacer> bmwiedemann: OK [21:31:31] <estellnb> could we do that? [21:31:38] <thomas_> i got radeon 4850 [21:32:03] <estellnb> so where to put which driver version was the last working one to whom because of what? [21:32:07] <bmwiedemann> got ATI Technologies Inc Radeon HD 3870 [21:32:24] <MrKane> estellnb: cant help, I only have Nvidia (and some onbord Radeon stuff me thinks...) [21:32:38] <LWFinger> Is this open-source that is failing? [21:32:46] <Holgi> ok, 5 min over [21:32:52] <Holgi> bmwiedemann: thx for your feedback [21:32:53] <estellnb> got ATI mobility Radeon HD-2700 [21:33:05] <bmwiedemann> I'll have to leave now, too. [21:33:15] <bmwiedemann> was nice to meet all of you "live" :) [21:33:20] <LWFinger> Thanks. [21:33:28] <jradzuweit> :-) [21:33:30] <MrKane> ditto , cyall [21:33:34] <thomas_> ditto [21:33:39] <CupRacer>  :-) [21:33:46] <poletti> hi [21:33:46] <bmwiedemann> and have a lot of fun... [21:33:49] <Holgi> thanks a lot [21:33:51] <Holgi> cu all [21:33:53] <jradzuweit> happy testing [21:34:19] <estellnb> should I put the whole discussion online or just a summary? [21:34:29] <estellnb> ok cyall [21:34:58] <LWFinger> Summary would be fine for me. I have the log. [21:34:58] --> badshah_ (n=badshah@210.212.50.14) has joined #opensuse-testing [21:35:10] <AJaeger> Bye for now! [21:35:17] <-- AJaeger has quit (Remote closed the connection)