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openSUSE:Testing meeting 20091031

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Agenda

  1. Minimum Install Requirements


Transcript

Begin of meeting is missing. If you have the full log please add/replace it.


[18:14:32] <ReferenceSeete> LWFinger: if you want to try, you could try the lzma/rpm/zypp + system upgrade. [18:14:54] <LWFinger> ReferenceSeete: Yes, NET install comes closest, but it does not activate the swap partition, even when present. [18:15:16] <ReferenceSeete> badshah: Check if I have thesaurus/help at all? Or in a variety of languages? [18:16:30] <ReferenceSeete> LWFinger: That's true. NET is text-based. I always forget about that option, only used it a couple times and when it goes wrong the time saved is lost. [18:16:38] <badshah> ReferenceSeete: check if they are in a variety of languages [18:17:18] <MrKane> Has there been any discussion of running openSUSE on embedded HW? [18:18:35] Betreten bmwiedemann hat den Kanal betreten (n=bmwiedem@black.zq1.de). [18:18:59] * bmwiedemann being pretty late because forgot the time [18:19:29] <MrKane> Hi bmwiedemann [18:19:32] <LWFinger> MrKane: That does not seem likely. [18:20:07] <MrKane> Why not, now that the WebYast is being worked on? [18:20:50] <MrKane> And the posibility of netbooks with ARM processors, not to mention N900 and similar devices. [18:21:23] <bmwiedemann> there is already Debian for armel. I have been using that at work on a Marvell Kirkwood system. [18:21:32] <LWFinger> As we have been discussing, even NET install needs more than 256M. That is pricey for embedded. [18:22:05] <bmwiedemann> (the arm eval board had 512 or 1024 MB DDR2 RAM) [18:22:54] <bmwiedemann> e.g. such specs: http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/t-openrdbdetails.aspx [18:23:24] <ReferenceSeete> badshah: Help yes, thesaurus no - English. No other languages not yet installed but packages available on the DVD [18:24:01] <bmwiedemann> anyway, there still are some issues with current 11.2 concerning zypper dup from 11.1 [18:24:53] <badshah> ReferenceSeete: ok thanks for the info. I wanted to add the status with dvd install on the bug report too [18:25:05] <ReferenceSeete> badshah: That is to say, help & thesaurus are listed in YaST as installed for OpenOffice in english. In the application thesaurus seems disabled but help works. [18:26:23] <MrKane> Well one has to think further down the timeline. 256 Mb will be standard on phones and mini net servers not to far in the future. Many home servers like Synology is already delivering many with 512 Mb. [18:26:43] <badshah> ReferenceSeete: ok, so this is a fresh RC2? And have you run yast-software management yet? coz in the first run it might try to pull in various languages [18:26:58] <badshah> ReferenceSeete: otherwise the issue seems only with the live-cd's [18:27:00] <ReferenceSeete> badshah: No, this is RC1 [18:27:23] <ReferenceSeete> badshah: I have to download RC2 tonight. Haven't had access to the internet for personal use all week. [18:28:34] <MrKane> Anyone hit any new serious bugs with 11.2 RC2? The two machines I have running looks good. I have an anoying bug with XEN, but that is probably liked with a gfx issue with my onboard Radeon hw. [18:29:09] <bmwiedemann> the language bug with liveCDs has only been fixed yesterday (after RC2) [18:29:10] <badshah> ReferenceSeete: ok, to take you through the summary of my problem: I do a fresh installation of RC2 from live-cd (GNOME/KDE), then start yast software management, and i see about 500 MiB's of packages is already preselcted for download/install [18:29:52] <ReferenceSeete> LWFinger: Do you think we should ask for the text-based installer to be possible/visible on the DVD & Live-CDs? [18:30:20] <badshah> ok these about 300 MiB is for openoffice-help and openoffice-thesaurus in languages like fr, de, es ,etc. and the other big chink is for 32bit libs (i am using 64 bit) [18:30:30] Betreten Sleep_Walker hat den Kanal betreten (n=Sleep@193.179.96.131). [18:30:55] <bmwiedemann> ReferenceSeete: there is a F3 option in isolinux to select resolution and that has Text as option, doesn't it? [18:31:50] <LWFinger> ReferenceSeete: I'm not sure. The need is for older machines. They likely will not have DVD drives or enough RAM for LiveCD. [18:31:52] <bgerber> When is the meeting today? [18:32:00] <bgerber> I just recevied the email. [18:32:32] <LWFinger> I thought it started 92 minutes ago, but I was in the minority. [18:32:33] <bmwiedemann> LWFinger: USB rules. There are even USB-DVD-drives [18:33:13] <LWFinger> Sure, but I don't want to spend the money - this was a $50 laptop. [18:33:26] <bmwiedemann> USB-sticks come at $5 [18:33:41] <bmwiedemann> and you can put the new liveCD isos straight on them with dd [18:33:49] <ReferenceSeete> bmwiedemann: I haven't checked, you're probably right. I know the DVD falls back to text if something goes wrong. So I've assumed it was there, didn't know if it was user-accessible. [18:35:06] <ReferenceSeete> badshah: I have seen the 32-bit pile on a fresh install before, but since I install from DVD and ask for the 32-bit compatibility pattern I never thought this behaviour was a bug. [18:37:29] <CupRacer> I installed another fresh minimal 11.2 RC2 yesterday. The ssh daemon autostart wasn't enabled by default. There was a bug report about that (bug #537980), but I don't understand the result of the bug discussion. Is the autostart really disabled by strategy?! [18:37:32] <bugbot> openSUSE bug 537980 in openSUSE 11.2 (Installation) "Opening SSH port in firewall should start SSH" [Normal,Resolved: fixed] https://bugzilla.novell.com/537980 [18:43:37] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: Yes sshd off by default is a (mis)feature of oS 11.2. [18:44:34] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: To be honest I don't use sshd and so disable the service on every install. So for me this is a feature, one less service started that I don't typically use. [18:45:33] <bmwiedemann> ReferenceSeete: CupRacer: at least sshd should be easy to enable on install (as before it was easy to disable) [18:46:58] <CupRacer> ReferenceSeete: It confused me a little yesterday. I installed 11.2 in a vmware box, read it's IP and disconnected from vmware console. SSH didn't work from remote so I began searching the error in my network.... [18:47:06] <CupRacer> Is this going to be communicated at the right place when releasing 11.2? [18:47:49] <bmwiedemann> should probably be somewhere in the ReleaseNotes [18:48:24] <ReferenceSeete> It is in the release notes: http://www.suse.com/relnotes/i386/openSUSE/11.2/RELEASE-NOTES.en.html [18:49:13] <CupRacer> bmwiedemann: I'm just asking, because I have this vision right now, that my collegues are going to ask my why they cannot connect to their new 11.2 boxes. :-) [18:49:37] <CupRacer> -my / +me [18:50:23] <bmwiedemann> yep. did anyone of you try a zypper dup from 11.1? [18:50:31] <CupRacer> ReferenceSeete: Okay, thanks. [18:50:43] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: I guess you'll have to inform them, or hope they are the people who read the Release Notes. [18:51:18] <bmwiedemann> on every system I tried, I met some problems with mouse+keyboard not working in X11 - especially not without xorg.conf [18:51:25] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: Although I think the placement of the Release Notes at the end during install...that could be done better. [18:52:11] <CupRacer> ReferenceSeete: I think I'm going to print it out and pass it over on every time they ask me... [18:52:24] <bgerber> I think that for remote installs it needs to be turned on by default. Or your SOL on working on getting the machine working. [18:53:24] <ReferenceSeete> bgerber: True, this needs to be variable based on the install method. [18:53:37] <bgerber> I do a lot of installs 600+ miles away and not having ssh available will be a real problem for them. [18:54:07] <bmwiedemann> "insserv sshd" is the way to go [18:55:03] <bgerber> but it is not easy to get to a shell during the install. with them. [18:55:52] <bmwiedemann> got to leave. have fun [18:55:59] <bgerber> often you only have the one ssh connection doing the install. [18:56:09] <CupRacer> Does anyone know why this behavior has changed "suddenly"? [18:56:17] <ReferenceSeete> bgerber & CupRacer, you two want to tag-team a bug-report? It should be easier to revert a change than make a new one this late in the process. [18:56:18] <CupRacer> bmwiedemann: Bye! [18:56:53] <LWFinger> I have to go as well. Bye. [18:57:04] <bgerber> Security. I agreeded it is a good security thing but that it needed to be altered based on installation method [18:58:13] <bgerber> It was agreeded at that time it would be. It now sounds like the ball was dropped and does not work as agreed. [18:58:50] <CupRacer> I thinks that the security aspect is a good thing. But shouldn't the firewall already provide this? [18:58:50] <ReferenceSeete> Then this definitely needs to be reported [19:00:26] <CupRacer> Who initiated the discussion about disabling sshd the last time? [19:00:57] <bgerber> I do not remember it started shortly after 11.1 came out. [19:02:41] <CupRacer> ReferenceSeete: bgerber: So what should we do with this bug report? Re-open it? [19:03:16] <bgerber> I am trying to find the bug right now. [19:03:37] <CupRacer> bgerber: Isn't it #537980 ? [19:03:47] <ReferenceSeete> Which bug? 537980 is not exactly what is being described here. [19:04:09] <bgerber> I just decided to create a new one. [19:04:32] <CupRacer> Okay. [19:07:12] <CupRacer> Just a question for better understanding a litte apart from this: Wouldn't openFATE be the correct place for such a sshd enabled/disabled discussion? Or is openFATE mainly used for new technologies / features? [19:08:15] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: At this stage - not for 11.2 [19:09:10] <CupRacer> ReferenceSeete: Yes, of course. But in general? [19:09:21] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: Yes, in general. [19:09:40] <bgerber> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=551667 [19:09:45] <bugbot> openSUSE bug 551667 in openSUSE 11.2 (Security) "SSH disable in all situation. It was agreed that that for remote install SSH would be enbled." [Critical,New] [19:13:58] <ReferenceSeete> Although speaking of openFATE, is there anything we should ask for in 11.3 that will make our lives easier? [19:21:53] <CupRacer> bgerber: Okay, I put in my two cents for that bug. So let's wait and see... [19:22:45] <CupRacer> Does anyone of you use FreeNX? [19:22:56] <ReferenceSeete> No, sorry. [19:24:57] <CupRacer> The last release is quite old. Ubuntu uses x2go instead... someone should implement it for openSUSE (not me!!). :-D --> openFATE [19:26:57] <davepl> got to go bye [19:27:08] Verlassen davepl hat den Kanal verlassen ("Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away"). [19:27:15] <CupRacer> ReferenceSeete: But seriously, I don't have any topics for openFATE right now. [19:28:15] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: There isn't too much that comes to mind for the distro itself that hasn't already been suggested - my biggest one is 'use one dictionary for all apps'. But that's in there. [19:29:07] <ReferenceSeete> I think I'm going to ask if we can review our minimum requirements. What we have isn't bad, but should probably be split into "cli-based" and "gui-based" [19:29:10] <ReferenceSeete> http://www.novell.com/products/opensuse/sysreqs.html [19:29:59] <ReferenceSeete> I don't see oS 11.2 running well on a P1 + 256MiB RAM with GNOME or KDE. Even XFCE probably wouldn't be pretty. [19:31:32] <CupRacer> I just had to smile about the soundcard information... sounds like openSUSE is just a game. :-) [19:32:41] <ReferenceSeete> I don't think it's too far off, but we should probably get someone to confirm those specs as usable. [19:33:27] <CupRacer> Splitting the requirements into cli and gui is a good idea. [19:33:34] <ReferenceSeete> It would be nice to move away from "minimum specs" to "useable specs" because I think that's what a typical person wants to know. What she needs to run it well, not what it needs to barely run. [19:34:36] Beenden MrKane hat den Server verlassen. [19:35:09] <CupRacer> Who would be the right person to define those specs? I don't have the right hardware to check this. Should we ask "the community"? [19:35:53] <CupRacer> (I hope it doesn't sound too naive.) [19:36:34] <ReferenceSeete> openSUSE forums would be the best bet I think. I can do that. [19:37:08] <CupRacer> I think that just define "gui-based" wouldn't be enough. We should then define specs for different display-/window-managers. [19:37:33] <CupRacer> IceWM is running well on some of my thinclients... I would never try KDE4 on them. [19:38:36] <CupRacer> But I'm afraid that this would make the specs too complex. [19:40:38] <ReferenceSeete> Hmm, it might be useful to have a basic/advanced set-up [19:41:16] <ReferenceSeete> The official requirements could be a simple CLI/GUI split and then we could have a wiki page that has more detailed combinations. [19:42:36] <ReferenceSeete> Because Openbox, TWM, IceWM etc. etc. will all have much lower needs than GNOME or KDE. But CupRacer is right, showing all the specs will be too much - especially for marketing materials [19:43:09] <CupRacer> So then a basic GUI setup would be to accept all the default settings (KDE4,...) while installing openSUSE. A basic CLI setup would (of course) be the minimal installation. [19:43:46] <CupRacer> As a result, the basic usable requirements are the reqs to run a full blown KDE4. [19:43:49] <bmwiedemann> I used openSUSE a lot for servers and GUI is not there [19:44:18] <bgerber> I have to go. Till next time. Good luck. [19:44:26] <bgerber> tt [19:44:29] <CupRacer> bgerber: Bye. [19:46:35] <CupRacer> So when there'd be global reqs for GUI and CLI, it should be a appropriate button during the installation, that let's users switch from GUI (KDE4) to a CLI-installation (not just hidden beyond "other"). [19:49:13] <ReferenceSeete> Ideally, the graphical install should stay the same but a text-based install should have the minimal option on the same level as GNOME/KDE. [19:50:10] <CupRacer> Yes, that's what I meant. [19:51:11] <ReferenceSeete> However, since ycp produces '3 interfaces for the price of one' I don't think it will happen that way. [19:51:51] <CupRacer> ycp? [19:52:20] <ReferenceSeete> ycp is the what the oS devs us to power YaST. [19:52:34] <CupRacer> ah, okay. [19:53:14] <CupRacer> I think I can live with that. [19:54:11] <ReferenceSeete> Granted I'm not versed in ycp at all, I bet it's possible to have a different setup for ncurses versus Qt & GTK. [19:54:28] <ReferenceSeete> Whether they will want to maintain such a difference is another question. [19:57:31] <CupRacer> Uh, ah, sorry, I think we talked at cross purposes. :-) [19:57:40] <ReferenceSeete> How so? [20:00:00] <CupRacer> What I wanted to say is that it would be nice to not just have the installation option "minimal system" hidden beyond "other" but next to KDE and Gnome. I think you're talking about different installation options in ycp, Qt and GTK, aren't you? [20:00:29] <bgerber> I was able to install 11.1 on a pentium III with 128 M, but I have to have a 2 GB swap to install. after that it worked will. [20:01:01] <bgerber> s/will/well. [20:05:22] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: Yes I was thinking having it under "Other" during a graphical install but at the same level in a text-based install. [20:05:38] <ReferenceSeete> bgerber: do you know the rpm of your HDD? [20:06:09] <ReferenceSeete> bgerber: And what sort of install was it? CLI, GNOME etc? [20:07:09] <bgerber> CLI installed but I used LXLE as the GUIL [20:07:22] <CupRacer> ReferenceSeete: Ah, okay. I'm not a native english speaker, so sometimes it's difficult for me to get the right sense directly. :-) [20:08:19] <bgerber> There is a openfate entry to add it to the supported GUI. [20:08:27] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: No problem, I'm trying to pick up another language and if I was as fluent there as you are in English...I'd probably get lazy about improving. [20:10:06] <CupRacer> ReferenceSeete: Thanks. :-) What's that language? [20:10:49] <CupRacer> bgerber: Did you try LXDE with 11.2, too? [20:11:37] <bgerber> It is OK. Still playing with it. [20:12:23] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: Spanish [20:12:42] <bgerber> I am in and out so I may not respond very quickly. [20:13:08] <CupRacer> bgerber: I gave it a quick try about 2 weeks ago but I just got a flickering panel at the bottom. Unfortunately, I don't know if it was 11.1 or 11.2. [20:15:04] <CupRacer> ReferenceSeete: Spanish is a nice language. I wanted to start learning it in school, but my latin class was running parallel to the spanish class. So I just know "buenos dias". :-) [20:16:26] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: I just started so I'm not too much beyond that myself. [20:17:38] <CupRacer> ReferenceSeete: Hang on, I believe it'll be worth the effort. [20:18:05] <ReferenceSeete> bgerber: Do you think we could support LXDE? If we have enough interest in the testing team and wider community, we might be able to get it in shape for official support. [20:21:44] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: I think you're right. I just have to increase the effort. [20:27:33] <CupRacer> ReferenceSeete: But be careful, openSUSE first. :-) [20:54:42] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: Will do. [20:57:21] Beenden CzP hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). [20:59:41] Betreten simon123 hat den Kanal betreten (n=Rajko@97-88-211-199.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com). [20:59:52] <CupRacer> I'll have to leave soon, so what [21:00:12] <CupRacer> ...are we going to do with the requirements? [21:00:26] <CupRacer> Should we discuss it on the the mailing list? [21:08:25] <bgerber> ReferenceSeete, I reallly thing we could. [21:08:54] <bgerber> I think the email list is the best place. [21:09:51] <CupRacer> So then we should start it as a new topic. I can do this later on this evening. [21:12:12] <ReferenceSeete> CupRacer: sure , that would be great [21:12:48] <ReferenceSeete> Mailinglist will allow us to include more people [21:14:28] <CupRacer> Okay, I'm going to mail it to the list. [21:17:03] <CupRacer> Did anyone of you join here at the beginning of the meeting? Then we could provide the full irc protocol to the other members like the last two times. I was a little late... [21:17:58] <ReferenceSeete> I was here from the beginning but I'm not on my own computer. [21:18:14] <ReferenceSeete> I'll copy-paste-email to myself. [21:18:54] <CupRacer> That would be great. [21:29:16] <CupRacer> Okay, folks. I have to leave now. See you next time... [21:29:22] <CupRacer> Bye! [21:29:25] <ReferenceSeete> See you later. [21:29:31] Beenden ReferenceSeete hat den Server verlassen ("Page closed").