Wiki Team/Meetings/2009 10 30-transcript

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Revision as of 13:13, 3 November 2009

(18:00:56) rhorstkoetter: Welcome to today's wiki team meeting. thanks everyone for attending
(18:01:09) saigkill [n=saigkill@opensuse/member/saigkill] hat den Raum betreten.
(18:01:20) rhorstkoetter: the agenda for today's meeting is at http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Wiki_Team/Meetings
(18:01:27) Shayon: Yea ,:)
(18:01:38) suseROCKs: if ya'll don't mind, I'd like to sit in and observe the proceedings.
(18:01:40) rhorstkoetter: we have a rather tough agenda and lots of things to discuss
(18:01:50) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: sure, welcome
(18:01:54) suseROCKs: whoa, tough agenda?   I better leave  :-)
(18:02:02) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:Yea
(18:02:12) Shayon: suseROCKs:You can stay and have a look :)
(18:02:56) rhorstkoetter: some foreword: please focus on getting one (or better two) steps further with a wiki concept in mind. I'd like to get some things ironed out and assign responsibilities to specific tasks 
(18:03:01) rhorstkoetter: so, let
(18:03:01) rhorstkoetter: s get started
(18:03:10) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:Then from #1 should we start:
(18:03:20) rhorstkoetter: yeah. #1 QA process (+ Wiki Forum). FlaggedRevs VS sandboxing approach
(18:03:45) rhorstkoetter: we need to agree on either flaggedrevs or sandboxing approach
(18:03:48) rhorstkoetter: opinions?
(18:04:24) Shayon: As discussed on the ML's and much more IRC's ....what i personally feel is flaggedrev's should be considered
(18:04:55) Shayon: and at the same time we should not forget that ,FSundermeyer adviced to have minimum number of extensions
(18:05:05) saigkill: Just for clarify: What is flaggdrev?
(18:05:19) javier_: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:FlaggedRevs
(18:05:34) Shayon: so as to easily perform the update of MediaWiki 1.15
(18:05:36) javier_: it's an extension for MediaWiki
(18:05:39) Shayon: yea ...
(18:06:08) javier_: what do they use on Wikipedia?
(18:06:13) rhorstkoetter: ok, as you know sandbox was my initial proposal .. what exactly is your reason to prefer flaggedrevs?
(18:06:25) rhorstkoetter: javier_: afaik, flaggedrevs
(18:06:44) saigkill: aha ok. THX
(18:07:08) rhorstkoetter: the reason I proposed sandbox is to stop the uncontrolled growth of the wiki and to have a well-controlled set of approved documentaion
(18:07:35) rhorstkoetter: I guess everyone is aware of the general idea
(18:07:39) javier_: rhorstkoetter: could you elaborate a lil bit on the sandbox concept?
(18:07:48) rhorstkoetter: what advantages do you see in using flaggedrevs?
(18:07:53) rhorstkoetter: javier_: 
(18:07:56) rhorstkoetter: sure
(18:08:16) rhorstkoetter: we'd introduce a namespace sandbox where new articles get created initially
(18:08:45) Guest30087: It makes me uncomfortable that FlaggedRevs will make updating harder, according to one of the email messages leading up to this forum.
(18:08:59) rhorstkoetter: then, as soon as the athor feels the article appropraite he starts a discussion/reviewing process at the (to be created) wiki-forum
(18:09:14) Shayon: Guest30087:Too many extensions at the same time will make the things harder
(18:09:22) Guest30087: ...that is, updating the site, not updating pages.
(18:09:47) Shayon: I agree with rhorstkoetter :)
(18:09:56) javier_: rhorstkoetter: ah ok. so he would ask for feedback in the appropiate subforum
(18:10:02) rhorstkoetter: I hopethat a reviewing process will lead to better quality. once this is done, it's the responsibity of the wiki team to move the article out of sandbox
(18:10:03) Shayon: but on the other hand Flaggedrev allows the Editor and Reviewer users to rate revisions of articles and set those revisions as the default revision to show upon normal page view:Thats the only reason which i personally feel
(18:10:13) ptr_uzl: Couldn't flaggedrev be considered a tool that just helps with the QA process, while sandbox approach is manual work?
(18:11:11) rhorstkoetter: javier_: exactly .. that way we may utilize 35.000 proofreader .. the article can evolve over time (let's say a week) and it won't be moved unless it's conform with the Guidelines from a content, design, formulation perspective
(18:11:13) ptr_uzl: I mean, as far as I understand, the goal is the same, while one apprach uses a tool (flaggedrevs) and the other doesn't...
(18:11:46) javier_: rhorstkoetter: ok. it's a good idea
(18:12:11) Shayon: ptr_uzl:I am satisfied
(18:12:18) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: in general yes .. it's just the way we'd like to handle this
(18:12:23) rhorstkoetter: that said...
(18:12:42) javier_: wouldn't flaggedrev make the wiki closed?
(18:13:01) Shayon: javier_:could explain it in a bit detail?:)
(18:13:23) rhorstkoetter: I interviewed martin gräßlin from ubuntuusers.de last week (they use a sandbox approach) and he told me that it's worth it (good experiences) .. the result is awesome, I've never seen a better structured documentation
(18:13:43) javier_: well, I mean that any who wants to create an article would have to ask an editor for feedback
(18:13:51) javier_: *anyone
(18:14:07) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:that sounds good ....
(18:14:35) rhorstkoetter: I'll go along with whatever decision .. uestion is, what leads to better QA
(18:14:43) javier_: rhorstkoetter: so, with the sandbox all regular wiki users would be able to write articles in the sandbox space, right?
(18:14:54) javier_: I mean only in that space
(18:14:58) rhorstkoetter: javier_: yes JUST in sandbox
(18:15:01) suseROCKs: Have you given any thought to how such a moderated approach would work?  i.e., who would do the moderation and how quickly?  What's the criteria for approval?
(18:15:03) javier_: ok
(18:15:29) javier_: exactly, that's the thing... manual tracking/reviewing
(18:15:58) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: moderation would be done by wiki moderators, approval as well. criterion? guidelines(to be created - 2nd topic)
(18:16:17) Shayon: Evrythimng will be done on the basis of the guidelines ;
(18:16:21) Shayon: everything*
(18:16:30) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:Yes!
(18:16:47) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: yeah ... I see no other chnace to introduce QA without rules
(18:17:21) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: guidelines mean ... formulation, design, template usage in wiki articles
(18:17:23) javier_: so how would we track the process?
(18:17:32) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:absolutely
(18:17:59) rhorstkoetter: javier_: as explained ... new articles in sandbox, when finished presentation in wiki forum, then approval
(18:18:14) javier_: ah ok.
(18:18:17) suseROCKs: ok  here's one thing I do see.  People use the wiki in two ways  1) To post articles that are informative to the general public and 2) as a sort of note-taking for teams.   Sounds to me like team collaboration stuff should be moved away from the wiki and placed in another tool.
(18:18:38) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: yeah, aligned
(18:18:54) rhorstkoetter: the wiki cannot be trashcan of opensuse and it is currently
(18:19:02) suseROCKs: agreed
(18:19:06) Shayon: hmmm....
(18:19:11) rhorstkoetter: OR we need a seperate namespace for such team stuff
(18:19:39) Shayon: but certain are under process ,to make it a good documentation and further will be decided as the meeting continues :)
(18:20:06) Shayon: things*
(18:20:17) rhorstkoetter: one remark to minor/major edits
(18:20:27) tcpip4000: this new guidelines should be also applied backwards because there are some outdated manuals in the wiki
(18:20:51) rhorstkoetter: minor edits may be done by everyone .. fixing links, spelling corrections and so on .. to be defined in the guidelines
(18:21:06) Shayon: tcpip4000:The guidelines will be made keeping in the entire Wiki directory ,
(18:21:15) Shayon: in mind*
(18:21:37) rhorstkoetter: for a major edit one would need to get a working copy in sandbox and after reviewing it would be the sole responsibility of the wiki team if the working copy would replace the approved article or not
(18:22:11) rhorstkoetter: tcpip4000: definitely .. we need to review the whole content and adjust it to the guidelines
(18:22:23) Guest30087: So what distinguishes a minor from a major edit?
(18:22:28) rhorstkoetter: that's lots of work for lots of vlounteers
(18:22:51) suseROCKs: work = quality
(18:22:52) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:Regarding the major edit - a proper rule has to be implemented in the guidelines as to when to consider the articles as a major or minor edit
(18:22:58) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: that's to be defined in the guideline. as I said: spelling corrections and stuff would be minor
(18:23:04) tcpip4000: rhorstkoetter: yep
(18:23:11) rhorstkoetter: i.e. not changing the content from a content perspective
(18:23:21) Shayon: yea..ohk--
(18:23:24) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: yeah
(18:23:44) Guest30087: rhorstkoetter: volunteering for editing is why I'm here.
(18:23:47) rhorstkoetter: so, what do you folks think .. sandbox vs. falggedrevs
(18:24:02) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: that's truly awesome- much appreciated
(18:24:11) saigkill: For me Sandbox sounds good..
(18:24:33) rhorstkoetter: maybe a flaggedrevs pro want to step in and explain its advantages
(18:25:18) saigkill: What is easyer to manage?
(18:25:19) rhorstkoetter: I mean ... I just want to have an agreed approach we'll work on as a team
(18:25:19) javier_: flaggedrev has some features like automatic promotion after a number of edits, etc
(18:25:35) Guest30087: rhorstkoetter: so it's really an honor system? no real control of clean vs. tentative changes?
(18:25:54) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: more or less yes
(18:26:19) rhorstkoetter: flaggedrevs has more or less the same features but the whole namespace is open for major edits
(18:26:40) rhorstkoetter: one can work on a new rev that gets approved by the team and is shown to readers
(18:26:44) Guest30087: rhorstkoetter: But I thought the idea was to get some control, especially over the documentation aspects.
(18:26:49) rhorstkoetter: that's how I myself understand flaggedrevs
(18:26:59) Shayon: me too -
(18:27:06) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: that's why I'm pro sandbox
(18:27:11) javier_: so with sandbox, we would have to check the forums? how would we get notified of new articles?
(18:27:32) suseROCKs: whichever you choose, you should choose the path of least resistance.  Don't set up a path that requires the creator to have to know a lot of stuff before they start writing.   That's one fundamental problem with wikis now (syntax issues)
(18:27:38) martinum [n=martinum@h49n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] hat den Raum betreten.
(18:27:41) rhorstkoetter: javier_: hm, honestly I'm not an expert here ... rss maybe?
(18:28:05) saigkill: suseROCKs: +1
(18:28:08) javier_: I don't know
(18:28:16) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: aligned .. and I think the sandbox is straight forward if explained
(18:28:22) Shayon: i only see the rss option,which is quite impressive -
(18:28:22) saigkill: AFAIK RSS is possible for new messages
(18:29:15) rhorstkoetter: let's leave some thoughts about the forums
(18:29:30) rhorstkoetter: does everyone feel utilizing this resource as appropraite
(18:29:34) Guest30087: javier_: How about a "sandbox" notice that can only be removed by a moderator? All edits or new pages would be entered into "sandbox", and the notice removed only after checking.
(18:29:35) rhorstkoetter: for proofreading?
(18:29:37) javier_: rhorstkoetter: yes, that's right, rss would do the trick
(18:30:16) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: the article won't stay in sandbox
(18:30:19) javier_: Guest30087: sounds good.
(18:30:28) rhorstkoetter: it's moved to the regular namespace when finished
(18:30:45) rhorstkoetter: e.g. sandbox/vlc become vlc
(18:30:46) suseROCKs: rhorstkoetter:   I think the question can be divided in two areas:  Is the implementation of moderation appropriate?  and which tool is best?   I say +1 to #1 and for #2 I say implement both in a test environment and give your team a chance to evaluate in real world scenarios.
(18:31:30) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: that sounds reasonable
(18:31:45) rhorstkoetter: then, let's move that discussion to the ML ok?
(18:31:54) rhorstkoetter: and test both approaches
(18:32:03) javier_: sandbox +1
(18:32:28) rhorstkoetter: what is the general feeling of participants: sandbox vs falggedrevs right now
(18:32:33) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:A lot of discussion is required for it ,agree with you
(18:32:34) rhorstkoetter: just to get an understanding
(18:32:48) saigkill: rhorstkoetter: sandbox +1 (felt)
(18:32:52) tcpip4000: sandbox +1
(18:33:00) Shayon: sandbox +1
(18:33:10) Shayon: quite convincing :)
(18:33:14) ptr_uzl: rhorstkoetter: test both approaches, pick up which fits best
(18:33:24) suseROCKs: sandbox is a very familiar concept to most of us, but flaggedrevs, most of us never heard of until today.   It's almost impossible to give an educated opinion about that one.
(18:33:40) rhorstkoetter: ok, then let's move on to topic #2
(18:33:45) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: true
(18:33:59) rhorstkoetter: Creation of Guidelines. Content and volunteers to come up with a draft
(18:34:09) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:Yup!!
(18:34:16) rhorstkoetter: please everyone have a look at the tinyurls I linked at the meeting page
(18:34:20) Guest30087: suseROCKs: except that it has been stated that Flagged Revs make updating the site harder.
(18:34:58) rhorstkoetter: http://tinyurl.com/yaglwb9
(18:35:05) Shayon: Guest30087:It has not been said that Flagged Revs make the updating harder
(18:35:05) rhorstkoetter: http://tinyurl.com/ylnklgu
(18:35:30) rhorstkoetter: the tinyurls are examples of what ubuntuusers.de has as guidelines
(18:35:54) Shayon: ohk-
(18:36:02) rhorstkoetter: just to get an impression of what should they look like and the topics that should be covered in there
(18:36:37) jbrockmeier: rhorstkoetter: is there a need to come up with our own, or can we adopt theirs?
(18:36:44) rhorstkoetter: that said, I'd sign responsible to come up with these guidelines for our wiki in co-work with Shayon - assumed there are no complaints by the team
(18:37:00) Shayon: In that case i think once the wikipedia's guidelines should taken in consideration
(18:37:08) suseROCKs: jbrockmeier:   we adopt and then tell everyone they stole ours.  :-)
(18:37:09) ptr_uzl: let's steal as much as possible from such well-written guidelines (ubuntusers, wikipedia, ...) :)
(18:37:12) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier: that's what I plan actually .. not copying but adjust theirs to our needs
(18:37:12) Shayon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_guidelines
(18:37:23) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: aligned
(18:37:42) Shayon: But there should be some unquiness in the openSUSE as well as the member , hehe:)
(18:38:02) suseROCKs: I suggest you set up firm milestone dates for the drafts.  If you don't, such discussion will go on forever.
(18:38:06) rhorstkoetter: I mean, it's anyway a working document that's dependent on other decisions we make - like .g. the (to be implemented QA process)
(18:38:22) rhorstkoetter: thus, it's just to decide who takes care and I'd do this
(18:38:38) jbrockmeier: suseROCKs: it's open source, we all get to share, that's the beauty
(18:38:47) jbrockmeier: rhorstkoetter: btw - what license do they use
(18:38:48) jbrockmeier: ?
(18:38:55) Shayon: well ,i just said in general
(18:39:07) suseROCKs: Class C Drivers License
(18:39:12) suseROCKs: ok  I stop joking now.
(18:39:13) tcpip4000: one of the most annoying problems with documentation is the myriad of standards, I vote for an adaptation of some standard
(18:39:23) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: be serious please :)
(18:39:54) Shayon: jbrockmeier:wikipedia uses Text of Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License
(18:40:02) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier: I'm not sure but I'll find out - as I said I interviewed a wiki team memeber of ubuntuusers last week - I reach out to him and find out
(18:40:15) jbrockmeier: K
(18:40:25) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: afaik ubuntuusers is using something similar
(18:40:38) suseROCKs: since you're in contact with other wiki teams, it might be a good idea to ask for their input once a semblance of a draft is in place.
(18:40:39) Shayon: rhorstkoetter: Creative Commons License "Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.0 Germany
(18:40:51) rhorstkoetter: so, are there any complaints that I take this as AI?
(18:40:59) rhorstkoetter: in co-work with Shayon
(18:41:43) Shayon: well others are coordinally invited :)
(18:41:57) rhorstkoetter: ceratainly
(18:42:03) Shayon: lol---sorry
(18:42:13) suseROCKs: s/coordinally/cordially/
(18:43:01) rhorstkoetter: ok, any more interested parties?
(18:43:05) Shayon: hmmm...
(18:43:30) rhorstkoetter: otherwise I'll take this and come up with a working draft and present it to the team once in a reasonable shape
(18:43:40) suseROCKs: I think 2 people max for initial draft is good.  Too many can slow the process from even starting.
(18:43:53) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: sounds reasonable
(18:43:55) ptr_uzl: rhorstkoetter: that would be great
(18:43:56) Shayon: suseROCKs:Aligned
(18:44:01) Shayon: Cool then :)
(18:44:05) rhorstkoetter: then AI: Guidelines -> Rupert and Shayon
(18:44:16) rhorstkoetter: ok, next topic
(18:44:28) rhorstkoetter: #3 Frontpage/Portal
(18:44:42) Shayon: #3 - Yea Portal(s)
(18:44:44) rhorstkoetter: we need a better entry page to openSUSE documentation resources
(18:45:02) rhorstkoetter: the current wiki frontpage doesn#T give the reader that impression
(18:45:12) rhorstkoetter: http://en.opensuse.org/Portal
(18:45:19) rhorstkoetter: Frontpage/Portal
(18:45:23) rhorstkoetter: sorry
(18:45:30) rhorstkoetter: http://en.opensuse.org/Portal_New
(18:45:39) rhorstkoetter: that's what we currently work on
(18:45:45) Shayon: hmm...well my proposal is over here - http://en.opensuse.org/Portal_New
(18:45:47) Shayon: hmmm
(18:46:03) k0da hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "Leaving").
(18:46:07) rhorstkoetter: I'd like to have such a page where we index categorize avaiable documenation for orientation purposes
(18:46:28) rhorstkoetter: also the guidelines should be prominently placed at this page along with contact and support information
(18:46:35) suseROCKs: it seems people have two definitions for entry page.  www.opensuse.org and en.opensuse.org.   Which one are you referring to as entry page?  (For clarification)
(18:46:40) rhorstkoetter: quick access to the wiki team and so on
(18:47:07) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: I'm talking about en.opensuse.org
(18:47:35) Shayon: rhorsjoetter:Ohk,i get it - but as Rajko M adviced,It would be better make the changes after the updation of MediaWiki
(18:47:52) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: we should offload content from curent en.opensuse.org to www.opensuse.org and establish a real wiki/diocumentation entry page at en.opensuse.org
(18:47:54) Shayon: as there would certain/few changes around the pages
(18:48:13) suseROCKs: rhorstkoetter:   I like that.  a cleaner journey  :-)
(18:48:25) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:Ohk,i get it - but as Rajko M adviced,It would be better make the changes after the updation of MediaWiki
(18:48:31) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: sure, I just wanna gather opinions and get input on what we've done so far
(18:48:45) Shayon: yea sure,i am on the same page .....:)
(18:48:48) rhorstkoetter: implemenation afterwards is anotehr story
(18:48:50) jbrockmeier_ [n=jzb@pool-71-100-137-219.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(18:49:01) Shayon: hmmmm.....
(18:49:10) rhorstkoetter: opinions on the Portal by interested parties?
(18:49:10) jbrockmeier_: Pidgin just died on me
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(18:49:21) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: no worries
(18:49:30) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: ?
(18:49:51) rhorstkoetter: afaik you were interested
(18:49:57) ptr_uzl: My portals idea (topic #8) is about 'topic portals', not necessary the entry page
(18:50:25) suseROCKs: jbrockmeier:   seems to do that when I pm you.  Sorry
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(18:50:55) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: :D stop pwning jbrockmeier
(18:51:17) Shayon: Guys get serious ;)
(18:51:31) rhorstkoetter: so, what's your general feeling about the portal idea?
(18:51:54) saigkill: My Favorite is Shayons Proposal
(18:52:04) Shayon: saigkill:Thanks
(18:52:08) Shayon: but Well,what i actually planned of the portal was all about the layout
(18:52:12) suseROCKs: rhorstkoetter:  I like the idea of cleaning things up into portals or whatever else, but seems to me it will be better evaluated after you've done all the in-house cleanup
(18:52:15) rhorstkoetter: saigkill: Shayon's is Rajko's revised
(18:52:33) saigkill: aha. ok
(18:52:39) Shayon: Yea the main Founder of the Portal page was Rajko M :)
(18:52:57) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: sure, it's just to agree on some edge things to come up with a resonable overall concept
(18:53:01) Shayon: suseROCKs:quite satisfying
(18:53:16) rhorstkoetter: nearly all things I proposed have one goal: usability
(18:53:39) jbrockmeier_: I like it, but it still seems a bit busy
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(18:53:49) Shayon: aha...
(18:53:57) suseROCKs: see if you can also make sure it is meeting accessibility as well.  I seem to recall running some validators against the wiki and it failed in some areas a while back.
(18:54:01) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: what would you like to see changed?
(18:54:07) jbrockmeier_: Shayon: this is to replace http://en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org ?
(18:54:08) suseROCKs: But with updating the software, you might resolve that instantly.
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(18:54:59) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: yes, but certainly not in its current state
(18:55:13) Shayon: sorry was out for a moment:)
(18:55:20) jbrockmeier_: OK - I think maybe we need to focus on fewer things
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(18:55:30) jbrockmeier_: right now, everything is presented at equal weight
(18:55:36) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: I'd like to have this http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Startseite in openSUSE flavor
(18:55:39) Shayon: jbrockmeier:Yes,but in a organized form
(18:55:50) jbrockmeier_: i.e., Documentation == News == Meetings, etc.
(18:56:03) Shayon: convinced,
(18:56:03) jbrockmeier_: maybe we should be focusing on, say, 3 things on the portal that lead to other things
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(18:56:17) jbrockmeier_: Applications * Developer * Community
(18:56:19) jbrockmeier_: or something?
(18:56:34) jbrockmeier_: then categorize Documentation under Applications
(18:56:44) Shayon: sounds good:
(18:56:46) jbrockmeier_: and News under Community, etc.
(18:56:53) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: it should reflect the character of a documentation resource (a wiki) and provide easy access to guidelines, contacts, support and categories of articles
(18:57:25) jbrockmeier_: rhorstkoetter: yes, but we may differ on what constitutes "easy access"
(18:57:27) jbrockmeier_: :-)
(18:57:34) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:Once three definite things are prepared ,then we can easily categorise and semiimportant things
(18:57:46) Shayon: semi-important*
(18:57:47) jbrockmeier_: I like the Startseite, but it still looks very busy
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(18:58:00) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: his means easy access to me http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Startseite
(18:58:36) jbrockmeier_: rhorstkoetter: this means easy access to me: http://www.apple.com/
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(18:58:55) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: :D
(18:58:57) ptr_uzl: I think the entry page (Portal_New) could just lead to other topic-subportals (topic #8). I could elaborate on them if needed, or wait until we get to 8th topic :)
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(18:59:26) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: apple actuelly is a synonym for usability, isn't it
(18:59:28) jbrockmeier_: rhorstkoetter: for instance, we probably don't need Meetings on the front page
(18:59:38) jbrockmeier_: if someoen is interested in meetings they go to Community
(18:59:41) jbrockmeier_: or Images
(18:59:45) jbrockmeier_: that isn't a portal topic
(18:59:50) jbrockmeier_: btw - not to criticise
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(18:59:54) Shayon: jbrockmeier:rhorstkoetter:quiet satisfying but if we go with the apples format ,then there may creation of some more pages
(19:00:01) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: that makes sense to me
(19:00:04) jbrockmeier_: Shayon: What you've done so far is much improved
(19:00:20) Shayon: aha....
(19:00:23) jbrockmeier_: Shayon: I couldn't have suggested the smaller categories without looking at what you did first :-)
(19:00:23) rhorstkoetter: as little categories as possible on the very first page
(19:00:36) jbrockmeier_: Shayon: so, awesome v2 here
(19:00:45) jbrockmeier_: it's the right approach
(19:01:03) Shayon: yea ,thats what i am focussing on ;)
(19:01:04) suseROCKs: jbrockmeier:   the one thing I definitely like on apple.com is the word "support"  instead of "documentation" or whatever.   It's a much more universal word for people to access a variety of information.
(19:01:31) cboltz [n=cb@opensuse/member/Cboltz] hat den Raum betreten.
(19:01:51) suseROCKs: rhorstkoetter:   Out of curiousity, would each portal then get its own namespace?
(19:02:02) jbrockmeier_: last suggestion: Shayon, Rupert I suggest the wiki team do the categorization and such, and then work with marketing team to refine language, etc.
(19:02:18) Shayon: ohk--
(19:02:31) Shayon: what i feel is ,there should also be a direct link  to a wiki frontpage : which should guide to other wiki pages
(19:02:39) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: we're talking about ONE portal currently as a replacement for en.opensuse.org
(19:03:07) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: the Portal should become the wiki-frontpage actually
(19:04:03) Shayon: to be spcific :Wiki-frontpage and introduction to en.opensuse.org
(19:04:06) Shayon: sound good?
(19:04:30) Guest30087: rhorstkoetter: Yes, and the wiki hyperling should go to a different page :-)
(19:04:30) Shayon: so that there should be proper guide to th enew cumores and ease of acces
(19:04:48) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: aligned .. we'll smooth the portal and think about categorization .. then put it to the marketing team for a good visual presentation, language and stuff
(19:05:18) jbrockmeier_: rhorstkoetter: fantastic. I'm excited about having a much cleaner wiki :-)
(19:05:23) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: you're fine in taking the lead here?
(19:05:27) Shayon: Yup
(19:05:29) Shayon: but
(19:05:30) Shayon: one more thing which want to point out is
(19:05:45) suseROCKs: ok I need to get going, but just wanted to say good job everyone  (and my sympathies to rhorstkoetter for all the hard work he's about to do, hehe)
(19:05:56) Shayon: if observe closely to teh current en.opensuse.org
(19:06:33) Shayon: has two links to news one on the left side (just a link) and on the right side upcoming_
(19:06:37) rhorstkoetter: suseROCKs: thanks, thanks for attending .. I'll upload the transscript and write minutes
(19:06:40) rhorstkoetter: JFYI
(19:06:48) Shayon: openSUSE news*
(19:07:01) Shayon: so to have a cleaner one,either of them could have skipped
(19:07:25) Shayon: got my point :)??
(19:08:26) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: I'd offload everything besides the navigation on the left to ww.opensuse.org and put the portal in the middle of the page (removing the right column completely)
(19:08:49) Shayon: Yea,thats what i am talking about,
(19:09:02) Shayon: to offload duplicate contents and other not-required stuff
(19:09:07) rhorstkoetter: ok, I'm on the same page
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(19:09:19) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: what do you think about
(19:09:30) Shayon: but certain things like "Sponsored by"have to be there, right?
(19:09:56) Guest30087: Uh, guys, please pardon if I've missed something, but the http://www.opensuse.org/en/ links to http://en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org, which lists many things besides the wiki (which, by the way, links to itself). Whatever acts as the Portal, has to link to these other things, too.  The Portal can't be the wiki front page.
(19:09:57) jbrockmeier_: hm
(19:10:11) srinidhi [n=srinidhi@opensuse/member/srinidhi] hat den Raum betreten.
(19:10:30) Shayon: Guest30087:The portal is the wiki cum intro page
(19:10:39) jbrockmeier_: the sponsored by should stay
(19:10:49) Linuxsusefan hat den Raum verlassen ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.").
(19:11:01) jbrockmeier_: we need to know how much use the right-hand stuff gets
(19:11:14) jbrockmeier_: though sponsored by doesn't have to stay on the right, it could move left
(19:11:23) jbrockmeier_: I can see how a two-column layout would be cleaner
(19:11:24) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: as Shayon said, the portal should replace en.opensuse.org - any other content (news-aggregator, sponsors and such) should be offloaded to www.opensuse.org imho
(19:11:33) jbrockmeier_: we should ping rlihm and ademmer
(19:11:39) Shayon: aha
(19:11:56) jbrockmeier_: rhorstkoetter: we should ping rlihm and ademmer on that. They have done the design on the front page
jbrockmeier jbrockmeier_ 
(19:12:06) jbrockmeier_: and do we know how much and/or if the other is used much?
(19:12:09) jbrockmeier_: but it's worth considering
(19:12:17) jbrockmeier_: it would be cleaner to be two-column
(19:12:17) Shayon: jbrockmeier:ohk--
(19:12:41) Guest30087: rhorstkoetter: So is Zonker the owner of  www.opensuse.org? Otherwise, we'd have tocoordinate with them.
(19:12:47) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: yeah, the sponsors could easily be moved to the left - I'll talk with rlihm
(19:13:16) jbrockmeier_: Guest30087: we don't have a single owner
(19:13:16) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: zonker is executive opensuse actually!
(19:13:34) jbrockmeier_: Guest30087: I defer a lot to rlihm & ademmer's sense of design there :-)
(19:13:40) jbrockmeier_: my sense of design is iffy at best
(19:13:59) jbrockmeier_: we should ping them, shouldn't take long
(19:14:08) Shayon: ok
(19:14:34) javier_: besides having categories, I would other things like openSUSE enws
(19:14:37) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier_: AI Rupert: ping rlihm and discuss design
(19:14:37) javier_: *nes
(19:14:38) Guest30087: Ok, I had the idea that  www.opensuse.org was separate from the wiki, and was controlled by others.
(19:14:40) javier_: *news
(19:14:49) jbrockmeier_: Guest30087: yes, that's true
(19:16:30) rhorstkoetter: ok, to sum up ... there's general agreement with the portal, design and categories needs to be ironed out
(19:16:42) rhorstkoetter: responsible: Rupert and Shayon (as always)
(19:17:12) Shayon: yea and rlihm and adhemer?
(19:17:21) Guest30087: jbrockmeier_: So if en.opensuse.org is the Porta, it has to point to all that other stuff, too, which means it can't just be a wiki page.
(19:17:30) rhorstkoetter: let's move on to topic #4
(19:17:36) jbrockmeier_: Guest30087: how do you mean?
(19:17:55) Shayon: Guest30087: it wont be a wiki page,rather a fully developed
(19:18:09) Shayon: intro/portal page ,with all necceseties
(19:18:50) rhorstkoetter: ok, topic #4: Semantic MediaWiki and technical achievability of MediaWiki. Extensions
(19:19:09) rhorstkoetter: actually that's FSundermeyer's topic but he's unable to attend
(19:19:19) Shayon: yea , go ahead - i am not that familiar with this
(19:19:24) Shayon: exactly ;
(19:19:41) rhorstkoetter: he provided sufficient input to the ML http://tinyurl.com/yj54aaj
(19:19:51) jbrockmeier hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(19:20:03) jbrockmeier_ heißt jetzt jbrockmeier
(19:20:05) rhorstkoetter: to summarize .. we have no issues (technically) with the desired MediaWiki etensions
(19:20:20) Guest30087: jbrockmeier_: Shayon just answered my concern.  en.opensuse.org points to Getting Opensuse, Participate, Report Bug, etc.  It really appeared that no one was concerned about these.
(19:20:32) rhorstkoetter: we should pay attention to http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Team/Requested_Extensions
(19:20:39) Shayon: but the only thing is to have minimal amout of extension
(19:20:46) EGD hat den Raum verlassen (quit: ).
(19:20:57) rhorstkoetter: and try to make sure that we use minimal amount of extensions possible
(19:21:15) rhorstkoetter: due to maintenance reasons
(19:21:19) Shayon: to achieve a smooth update :as mentioned by FSundermeyer
(19:21:21) Shayon: yup!!
(19:21:47) rhorstkoetter: so, we have no worries here ... good thing!
(19:21:53) Shayon: just a min
(19:22:03) rhorstkoetter: topic #5: Strenghten the Wiki team
(19:22:04) Guest30087: And FSundermeyer is the one who pointed on the ML the difficulty with FlaggedRevs.
(19:22:09) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: take your time
(19:22:14) Shayon: sorry was by mistake -plz ignore
(19:22:22) cboltz: rhorstkoetter: can you please wait a minute for the extensions?
(19:22:29) cboltz: Some of them aren't that easy...
(19:22:32) rhorstkoetter: cboltz: sure
(19:22:37) Shayon: so any concern guys regarding #4?
(19:22:42) Shayon: yea theres one :)
(19:22:52) cboltz: Let's start with the Bugzilla Reports extension
(19:23:02) Shayon: yea sure:
(19:23:06) cboltz: If I get the documentation right, it needs access to the bugzilla _database_
(19:23:13) cboltz: which is most probably a no-go
(19:23:53) Shayon: cboltz:could a explain a bit more on it...:)
(19:23:58) rhorstkoetter: cboltz: this is FSundermeyer's construction yard ... may you please start a discussion at the ML?
(19:24:14) Shayon: ohk--
(19:24:44) Shayon: Well one more thing which i wanted to mention is :
(19:24:50) cboltz: OK, I can do this (one mail per problematic extension)
(19:25:32) Shayon: we should not forget Rajko M , the main founder of the Portal  for the #3 agenda
(19:26:13) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: sure, Rajko is to keep in the loop with the Portal
(19:26:22) rhorstkoetter: cboltz: ok, thanks for taking care
(19:26:38) Shayon: yea so should we proceed?
(19:26:48) rhorstkoetter: let's move on please
(19:26:50) rhorstkoetter: topic #5: Strenghten the Wiki team
(19:26:54) Shayon: ok-
(19:27:41) Shayon: 1)what kind of members are required by the team ?
(19:27:41) rhorstkoetter: in order to be able to handle all this concept and the maintenance of the new wiki afterwards we need to strengthen the current team
(19:27:56) Shayon: aha--absolutely
(19:28:32) jbrockmeier: rhorstkoetter: may I make a suggestion?
(19:28:39) rhorstkoetter: my plan is to reach out to the community with an announcement "why (good) documentation matters" and "why it's important to the success of the openSUSE project"
(19:28:57) Shayon: jbrockmeier:sure ....
(19:28:59) Shayon: :)
(19:29:03) rhorstkoetter: that way I hope to achieve to raise people's attention on openSUSE documentation
(19:29:16) jbrockmeier: rhorstkoetter: what about mentoring wiki ninjas?
(19:29:17) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier: sure
(19:29:37) jbrockmeier: I think the only way we will get more effective wiki ninjas is to initially work 1:1 with them
(19:29:39) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier: sounds great
(19:29:55) rhorstkoetter: IC where you're coming from
(19:30:05) Shayon: plz dont mind ,but actually what are wiki ninjas?
(19:30:20) jbrockmeier: Shayon: sorry, being semi-silly
(19:30:34) jbrockmeier: Shayon: you're familiar with ninjas?
(19:30:35) rhorstkoetter: I plan to do the reachout once we got further with the general concept and once we have volunteers stepping up we may create such a program
(19:30:44) Shayon: never mind :)
(19:30:48) jbrockmeier: K
(19:30:55) jbrockmeier: OK
(19:30:56) Shayon: oh not much:jbrockmeier
(19:31:43) rhorstkoetter: AI here: I'll write an announcement and push it to jbrockmeier for review
(19:31:45) rhorstkoetter: aligned?
(19:31:53) jbrockmeier: aligned
(19:32:05) rhorstkoetter: one more thing in regard of the wiki team
(19:32:10) Guest30087: So these wiki ninjas would kick the stuffing out of wiki Bad Guys?  :-)
(19:32:28) rhorstkoetter: I'd like to define a specific role and responsibilty to wiki team members/moderators
(19:32:46) jbrockmeier: Guest30087: s/Bad Guys/bad pages/
(19:32:55) Shayon: Guest30087:they basically means anyone who's an expert at something.
(19:33:09) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:plz go ahead :)
(19:33:44) rhorstkoetter: they should mainly work in a supporting, moderating and assisting capacity - i.e. taking care of the smooth operation of the wiki, being a contact person to interested new editors (guiding them)
(19:34:11) Shayon: aha....
(19:34:43) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier: may you provide some more detailed ideas about the ninja thing please?
(19:35:16) jbrockmeier: rhorstkoetter: sorry, I was being flippant - basically, we want to mentor new editors into becoming expert wiki contributors
(19:35:30) jbrockmeier: rhorstkoetter: let's forget I said "ninja" :-)
(19:35:33) Shayon: i support it
(19:35:57) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier: IC, pretty much what I said
(19:36:01) Guest30087: Aww
(19:36:14) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: pardon?
(19:36:47) rhorstkoetter: federico1: ping
(19:36:54) Guest30087: Forgetting ninja.  I was still being flippant, sorry
(19:37:13) rhorstkoetter: next topic would be Wiki-Projects, you're info provider
(19:37:21) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: IC, no worries
(19:38:00) Shayon: jbrockmeier:could explain in a bit detail,how it would be done? :)
(19:38:05) Shayon: you*
(19:38:26) jbrockmeier: Shayon: mentoring?
(19:38:35) Shayon: yup...
(19:38:52) saigkill: Shayon: Can you mentoring me too?
(19:39:04) jbrockmeier: basically have members of the wiki team willing to work with new people, introduce them to the list, give them some tasks, check their work and then let them know what they're doing well or not
(19:39:11) jbrockmeier: answer any questions they have, etc.
(19:39:27) Shayon: saigkill:i didnt get you exactly , sorry ...?
(19:39:38) jbrockmeier: make sure that they feel comfortable and like they're part of the team
(19:39:43) rhorstkoetter: exactly what I meant with "supporting, moderating capacity" actually
(19:39:51) saigkill: Shayon: I'll ask you after the Meeting
(19:39:57) Shayon: jbrockmeier:ohk,
(19:40:01) ptr_uzl: I think something like wiki junior jobs might help with attracting new people
(19:40:06) Shayon: saigkill:sure ,no worries
(19:40:18) jbrockmeier: ptr_uzl: +1
(19:40:21) Shayon: ptr_uzl +1
(19:40:26) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: may you explain please - sounds interesting
(19:40:27) ptr_uzl: for reference: http://en.opensuse.org/Junior_Jobs
(19:40:40) Shayon: Again the one by Rajko :)
(19:41:05) Shayon: sorry mistaken :(
(19:41:24) javier_: I also like the idea of junior jobs +1
(19:41:28) federico1: rhorstkoetter: hey
(19:41:42) ptr_uzl: It is now used to mark easilly fixable bugs so that 'newbies' could pick up some easy task (and be mentored by some experienced package maintainer). Could be easilly extended to wiki, I think
(19:41:43) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: I like that, may you come up with this again on the ML?
(19:41:56) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: I read it right now
(19:41:57) ptr_uzl: rhorstkoetter: sure, AI for me
(19:42:04) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: cool, thanks
(19:42:11) rhorstkoetter: federico1: hey
(19:42:26) rhorstkoetter: would you like to take over the next aganeda topic please?
(19:42:38) rhorstkoetter: Wiki-Projects
(19:42:51) rhorstkoetter: or do we have any more input on strengthen the wiki team?
(19:43:52) Shayon: hmm..nothing more i suppose.jbrockmeier poitn was quite satisfying
(19:44:00) Shayon: point*
(19:44:28) federico1: sure
(19:44:40) rhorstkoetter: ok, then federico1... the stage is yours
(19:44:47) federico1: I recommended on the mailing list that we organize wiki-projects like the wikipedia does
(19:45:13) federico1: in each project, a group of editors agrees to take one topic ("musical instruments") and make it as good as possible
(19:46:13) federico1: so they do things like setting up navboxes for all the related pages, polishing the pages, and trying to get all of them in such a good state that they would be eligible for "featured article"
(19:46:46) federico1: it's basically people who really know about a topic; they get together and improve all the related articles.
(19:46:59) rhorstkoetter: ok, I got the idea
(19:47:02) rhorstkoetter: two things
(19:47:05) federico1: in opensuse, each team has done their own section of the wiki in an ad-hoc fashion
(19:47:12) rhorstkoetter: we need a lot of people to do that
(19:47:15) federico1: which is okay, but we can give out some guidelines to make their job easier
(19:47:40) rhorstkoetter: second: what particular wiki-proects could you imagine: gnome, kde, multimedia, internet, office
(19:47:42) rhorstkoetter: that way?
(19:48:25) rhorstkoetter: federico1: I like that .. it would lead to a consistent experience
(19:48:39) Shayon: in that case Education and medical may also be included ?
(19:48:47) federico1: rhorstkoetter: about needing a lot of people - yes, sort of.  But we could rotate some wiki editors among the gnome/kde/yast/etc. teams, to help each of them in turn
(19:49:09) federico1: I'm sure there are (for example) non-hackers in each of those areas that we could easily find, and they would agree to keep the wiki tidy
(19:49:14) ptr_uzl: AFAIK, wikipedia uses wiki-projects closely together with topic-portals, which I would like to talk about later. I think GNOME, KDE, OBS, Multimedia, Medical, Education, YaST are good examples
(19:49:36) rhorstkoetter: federico1: yeah, I forget about all the kde, gnome contributors that are not part of the wiki team itself but take care of their specific project pages anyway
(19:49:36) Shayon: hmm..sounds good-
(19:49:43) federico1: yeah, the topics that ptr_uzl mentions are great starting points
(19:50:08) federico1: we have some obvious ones, basically the big Foo/ hierarchies in the wiki... GNOME, KDE, YaST, OBS, etc.
(19:50:22) federico1: or we could look at the major categories
(19:50:36) federico1: the topics are easy to figure out; if we have a mailing list for something, it's probably a big-enough project :)
(19:50:45) rhorstkoetter: I'm completely fine with that wiki-projects and topic-portals ... question is .. who takes the AI to think about that and come up with something?
(19:51:31) rhorstkoetter: federico1, ptr_uzl: you're both boosters right?
(19:51:37) ptr_uzl: rhorstkoetter: yep
(19:51:40) federico1: yeah
(19:52:00) rhorstkoetter: may you two sit together and think about these two topics (projects and topic portals)
(19:52:03) federico1: hmm, wasn't it henne that started the thread about portals?
(19:52:12) Shayon: lol--
(19:52:32) Shayon: srry....was mistaken
(19:52:39) Shayon: plz ignore -again :(
(19:52:51) ptr_uzl: federico1: you're right. I think I get his point and did some investigation already...
(19:53:25) ptr_uzl: rhorstkoetter: I think we could take care of it (not sit together :) ). Federico?
(19:53:48) rhorstkoetter: federico1: I mean you already got started with the navboxes (=something I like)
(19:53:59) federico1: ptr_uzl: the portals and the projects seem to be part of the same goal; every project is definitely a candidate for a little portal
(19:54:01) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: taking care of is even better
(19:54:13) federico1: ptr_uzl: yeah, let's do it
(19:54:23) ptr_uzl: rhorstkoetter: OK, AI for Federico and me
(19:54:32) federico1: I can poke a few teams to ask them what would be more useful in navboxes for themselves
(19:54:33) rhorstkoetter: federico1: that's why I proposed to consider this as one battelfield and assign it to you both
(19:54:41) federico1: rhorstkoetter: excellent :)
(19:54:52) rhorstkoetter: awesome stuff
(19:54:53) ptr_uzl: federico1: yeah, wiki-projets are about organizing people, portals about presenting conent, so it's pretty related
(19:55:21) rhorstkoetter: ok, next agenda topic?
(19:55:30) Shayon: sure-any concerns?
(19:55:31) rhorstkoetter: or is there still something missing here?
(19:55:44) rhorstkoetter: if not ... Use of Templates
(19:55:50) federico1: by the way... I'm not a mediawiki expert. Wikipedia has this super-complex metatemplate for navboxes, but it didn't work when I just cut&pasted the source into our wiki
(19:55:59) federico1: I don't want to get *that* complex right now, but it's something worth considering
(19:56:29) rhorstkoetter: federico1: unfortunately I'm not a mediawiki expert as well ... pinging FSundermeyer?
(19:56:30) federico1: I don't know if wikipedia has some exotic extensions in its mediawiki setup, or what
(19:56:50) rhorstkoetter: I guess he's the appropraite contact person here
(19:57:03) ptr_uzl: federico1: I spent several hours playing with templates today - it's a bit tricky, but not that hard, IMO
(19:57:30) ptr_uzl: federico1: again, it's about stealing from wikipedia and then trial-error :)
(19:57:32) Shayon: Yea,templates are not at all hard ,just  a bit time-taking :)
(19:57:51) federico1: good to hear :)
(19:58:18) federico1: ptr_uzl: I think I understand the {{{number}}} substitution things; I'd like to learn more about conditionals and such
(19:58:33) federico1: we should build a reference page (probably just a bunch of links to mediawiki docs)
(19:58:59) Guest30087: Shayon: do you mean building them, or using them? Using them should be quick and easy!
(19:59:16) rhorstkoetter: in reagrd of templates, I'd like to have wiki-templates like "tested with openSUSE 11.2", "under review", "to do this, read these pages first" and so on
(19:59:20) Shayon: i mean to build them
(19:59:50) rhorstkoetter: we have those but it's a mess .. someone needs to go through and sort, delete obsolete stuff and so on, create new ones
(20:00:08) rhorstkoetter: I'd like to encourage editors to use these templates within the guidelines
(20:00:23) ptr_uzl: federico1: yeah, reference page about templates sound good
(20:00:30) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:regarding "under review" i created something similar to it
(20:00:35) Shayon: just a min
(20:00:46) Shayon: http://en.opensuse.org/Template:Needs_Review
(20:01:16) Shayon: and concerned with organizing of templates i prefer - http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Template_Messages_to_Review
(20:01:23) Shayon: initiative by Rajko
(20:01:38) rhorstkoetter: federico1: yeah, a reference page and link that page in the guidelines and encourage editors to use these templates while writing articles
(20:02:05) rhorstkoetter: Kalman brought my attention to some work he has done for the hungarian opensuse wiki http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=hu&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fhu.opensuse.org%2FSeg%25C3%25ADts%25C3%25A9g%3ASablonok
(20:02:33) rhorstkoetter: federico1: what do you think about that approach?
(20:02:37) Shayon: yea thats needed ::
(20:04:00) rhorstkoetter: ?? anyone still breathing
(20:04:09) Shayon: .....
(20:04:35) federico1: ooooh, nice
(20:04:37) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: would you like to contribute to this effort?
(20:05:04) rhorstkoetter: federico1: I think we could use this as a good start and adopt it to all available wiki templates
(20:05:12) federico1: rhorstkoetter: perfect; I love cheat-sheets :)
(20:05:23) rhorstkoetter: then link that overview-page from within the guidelines
(20:05:26) saigkill: rhorstkoetter: That's what we need. So we have an good Overview about all Templates.
(20:05:31) STS301 [n=STS301@opensuse/member/STS301] hat den Raum betreten.
(20:05:33) rhorstkoetter: federico1: awesome, me too
(20:06:11) rhorstkoetter: so, do I hear anyone volunteering :D
(20:06:27) Shayon: i'll willing to contribute for it
(20:06:30) federico1: ok, I'm starting a page to document the navboxes; one second...
(20:06:50) Shayon: as i have a done a bit of research on template in - http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Template_Messages_to_Review
(20:06:55) Guest30087: Definitely! But I'm not even formally in the team, as far as I know.  I certainly don't know how to do anything yet, despite having read the MediaWiki and WikiPedia stuff.
(20:07:25) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: much appreciated
(20:07:33) Shayon: Thanks...
(20:07:52) Shayon: federico1:What i feel is a page should be created like "Template Overview"
(20:07:59) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: anyone willing to contribute to make this wiki concept happen actually is a team member
(20:08:04) Shayon: and a sub page with Nav-boxes
(20:08:13) Shayon: federico1:sounds good?
(20:08:17) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: we have no application requirement or such
(20:08:36) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: that's what we're talking about, yes
(20:08:57) Shayon: oh,silly then....i suppose i missed few points
(20:09:16) federico1: Shayon: yeah - would that be http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Template_Messages ?
(20:09:43) rhorstkoetter: ok, folks, we need to hurry up  bit .. this meeting already lasts two hours actually
(20:09:45) rhorstkoetter: :)
(20:09:55) rhorstkoetter: next aganda item Use of wikipedia-like Portals
(20:10:05) ptr_uzl: yeah, beer is already waiting for me :)
(20:10:07) rhorstkoetter: I think we already decided to implement that
(20:10:12) EGD [n=EGD@opensuse/member/EGDFree] hat den Raum betreten.
(20:10:13) Shayon: just a min?
(20:10:14) rhorstkoetter: and we have an assignee
(20:10:26) Shayon: federico1:i feel http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Templates
(20:10:32) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: anything you'd like to add here?
(20:10:42) Shayon: would be a better option to organize the stuff ?
(20:11:03) ptr_uzl: rhorstkoetter: to templates? no
(20:11:09) federico1: Shayon: (aren't they just redirects of each other?)
(20:11:27) Shayon: federico1:i missed it sorry, just a min
(20:11:30) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: to topic portals
(20:11:46) ptr_uzl: ok, let me explain that a bit
(20:11:46) Shayon: federico1:http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=About_templates&action=edit
(20:11:50) Shayon: this one
(20:11:57) ***rhorstkoetter listens
(20:12:10) ptr_uzl: it's and idea originally coming from henne about using what wikipedia calls portals
(20:12:33) ptr_uzl: the main goal of portals is to nicely present related stuff ( examples were already given )
(20:12:49) ptr_uzl: wikipedia's examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Linux
(20:12:57) ptr_uzl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Mathematics
(20:13:19) ptr_uzl: Portals make use of prepared skeletons and templates, so it is quite easy to create new portal
(20:13:38) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: definitely +1
(20:13:42) ptr_uzl: They could be organized in subportals, link to each other (no surprise :) )
(20:14:17) rhorstkoetter: as it's related to federico1's wiki-projects and we have assigned it .. go for it, I myself have no complaints at all
(20:14:24) ptr_uzl: I think that the main page (which we also call portal), could reference these portals (I hope you get it :) )
(20:14:32) ptr_uzl: OK
(20:14:43) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: I completely got the idea
(20:14:59) Shayon: ptr_uzl:that means ,first the sub-portals have to created
(20:15:01) Shayon: ?
(20:15:17) rhorstkoetter: and ... that said, this idea is perfectly in sync with my categorization idea at the "main" portal (you mentioned that already)
(20:15:20) Guest30087: These two portals illustrate what I have in mind for master document templates (in the ML)
(20:15:59) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: what about joining federico1 and ptr_uzl's AI then?
(20:16:04) ptr_uzl: Shayon: what needs to be done first: update mediawiki, install one specific extension (already discussed with FSundermeyer), then implement (~steal) temlates from wikipedia and then portals can be created
(20:16:06) rhorstkoetter: everyomne OK with that?
(20:16:33) saigkill: Yes. I like it
(20:16:39) Shayon: i am ok-
(20:17:08) ptr_uzl: Guest30087: no, document tempaltes (I'd call them skeletons) are something different
(20:17:11) rhorstkoetter: lol, question is .. are federico1, ptr_uzl and Guest30087 OK to join forces here?
(20:17:26) Guest30087: Shayon: Well, no; the subPortal links can be placeholder until the Portal is built.
(20:17:55) Shayon: yea..i got it:)
(20:18:06) Shayon: just wanted to confirm once :)
(20:18:11) ptr_uzl: I think we already agreed with federico we will take a look into it. If John wants to participate, would be great
(20:18:20) Guest30087: Certainly, if I find out what AI means and how to get into it :-).
(20:18:36) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: awsome, that's what I thought of
(20:18:37) federico1: rhorstkoetter: fine with me
(20:18:49) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: AI is action item
(20:19:06) rhorstkoetter: OK folks, I think we're gone through
(20:19:23) rhorstkoetter: anything elase you'd like to discuss?
(20:19:57) rhorstkoetter: otherwise .. I'd like to thank everyone for attending the meeting and being that patient (I mean it lasted two hours)
(20:20:13) Shayon: are all the topics covered?
(20:20:27) saigkill: Thank you for the good moderating...
(20:20:39) rhorstkoetter: I myself will write minutes and provide them at the ML arit o mnday)nd I'll pload a transcript of the metingto the wiki
(20:20:50) rhorstkoetter: Shayon: afaik,yes
(20:20:52) jbrockmeier: thanks rhorstkoetter!
(20:20:59) Guest30087: ... but how do I get into an AI?
(20:21:04) saigkill: Can we place the Logfile of this Meeting into the Wiki? So we can read it later ...
(20:21:21) Shayon: rhorstkoetter:ok
(20:21:24) ptr_uzl: Guest30087: it's nothing specific. I'll let you know via mail :)
(20:21:33) saigkill: Guest30087 You mean AI for creating Portals?
(20:21:51) rhorstkoetter: saigkill: sure, that's what I meant with transcript
(20:21:58) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier: yw
(20:22:05) jbrockmeier: k
(20:22:07) Shayon: thanks everyone for the time and support. and special thanks to rhorstkoetter
(20:22:08) jbrockmeier: I'm afk for a fwe
(20:22:10) Guest30087: ... and for Templates, and for Junior Jobs, ...
(20:22:11) jbrockmeier: few
(20:22:14) jbrockmeier: have a wonderful weekend, all!
(20:22:30) saigkill: jbrockmeier: You too
(20:22:31) Shayon: jbrockmeier:same to you...!!
(20:22:37) rhorstkoetter: Guest30087: just participate in the specific discsi he ML
(20:22:54) ptr_uzl: rhorstkoetter: thanks for driving this effort!
(20:22:57) rhorstkoetter: jbrockmeier: thanks, u too
(20:23:05) rhorstkoetter: ptr_uzl: yw
(20:23:11) Guest30087: Oh.  Good -- I like the ML much better :-)
(20:23:14) ptr_uzl: Guest30087: yes, just stay subscribed to opensuse-wik
(20:23:17) ptr_uzl: i
(20:23:28) saigkill: I must think about that, but i think that i can make the Task with creating Portals.
(20:23:43) rhorstkoetter: ok, thanks everyone ... over and out!!
(20:23:43) javier_: you too jbrockmeier!
(20:24:16) javier_: thanks for your initiative, rhorstkoetter
(20:24:43) ptr_uzl: saigkill: perfect. Let's coordinate that on opensuse-wiki ML. I will post some overview next week, OK?
(20:25:10) saigkill: OK. I'm happy about that...
(20:25:26) ptr_uzl: great. Everybody enjoy the weekend
(20:25:35) ***ptr_uzl is going for that beer :)
(20:25:41) Shayon: same to you ptr_uzl