Software Portal/Meetings/2007 05 12/transcript

From openSUSE

Note: this log has been heavily post-edited to aggregate related lines into topics

Relevant Links

  <yaloki> Relevant links:
  <yaloki> http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2007-05/msg00117.html
  <yaloki> http://en.opensuse.org/Package_Manager_Redesign
  <yaloki> http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/files/swportal/mockup/mockup.jpg
  <yaloki> http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/files/swportal/domainmodel.png
<jhaygood> http://justinhaygood.com/index.php?q=system/files/OpenSUSE+Application+Manager.odp
           tiny presentation with initial ideas for the client-side stuff i'm planning on working on
<jhaygood> but the client-side requires the server-side stuff to be somewhat useable before it can
           really be started :)
  <yaloki> *** AI jhaygood: put a PDF version of his slides online ;)

Start and Introduction

  <yaloki> ========= OFFICIAL START
  <yaloki> ok, lemme start by introducing the topic
  <yaloki> basically, a few folks have started discussing some ideas about how to improve software
           installation on openSUSE
  <yaloki> this goes into several directions, with amongst them
  <yaloki> - having a "single-click" yast2 module to add repositories and install packages, easy to
             deposit on websites
  <yaloki> - an openSUSE "software portal" web application that aggregates all sorts of information
             (latest updates, new applications, latest versions, ...) + easy browsing of
             applications/packages that are available for openSUSE
  <yaloki> (with screenshots, ratings, tagging, comments, and obviously links to the above mentioned
           "one-click installation)
  <yaloki> about the single-click install yast2 module, see benJIman's work (yast2-mpp)
  <yaloki> about the website, a (very) preliminary mockup, just to give an idea:
           http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/files/swportal/mockup/mockup.jpg
  <yaloki> This meeting is about discussing goals, ideas, approaches
  <yaloki> and also gathering people who are interested on working on the project
  <yaloki> java developers, database developers, web designers, etc...
  <yaloki> jhaygood, benJIman and I are pretty much already on the team
  <yaloki> of course, this sounds like a tremendous amount of work
    <sPiN> as a web dev, id be glad to contribute in any way i can
  <yaloki> so we definitely need all the help we can
  <yaloki> the idea is also that we, the community, take the occasion and *do* something to improve
           the situation
  <yaloki> (as opposed to always whining and blaming the suse team in Nürnberg ;P)
  <yaloki> we already decided to have Java for the website
  <yaloki> because it's just really fast, makes WS/SOAP easy, and will give us the chance to do
           something really solid
  <yaloki> there are two "client sides", so to say
  <yaloki> the yast2 side of things, where the goal is to have a new software installation
           application at some point in time, desktop-based, that uses metadata from the website
  <yaloki> and the website itself, a web UI that's easy to use to browse, find, comment, keep up
           to date, and install stuff
  <yaloki> for those that are accustomed to UML, I've started a first draft of a domain model:
           http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/files/swportal/domainmodel.png
<benJIman> It would be good to point out that the web based portal as well as providing a
           valuable service to users, will provide a means to collect even more valuable
           metadata from users: contextual links, ratings, screenshots, categories etc, which
           can later be used to encrich all forms of clients.
    <sPiN> benJIman, and comments as well?
<benJIman> sPiN: indeed
    <sPiN> are you planning to code that then?
  <yaloki> sPiN: yep
    <sPiN> so in many ways, were are talking about all the features of kde-apps.org but with one
           click install?
  <yaloki> sPiN: yes, similar
    <sPiN> yaloki, ohh fancy :P
  <yaloki> also pull metadata from freshmeat.net, etc..
  <yaloki> + link to forum threads and wiki pages about the application (sort of a "knowledge base")
    <sPiN> great idea
<jhaygood> Click-N-Run is another similar system, but not as wide-covering
  <yaloki> *** AI, look at linspire's CnR
  <yaloki> on the technology side of things (although it's still quite open and not really critical
           at this point): Java 6, Spring framework, possibly Grails for the web UI, Python/YCP for
           the desktop client

Rating System and openSUSE Build Service

<aka_druid> yaloki, about the rating criteria, why dont we use the same as the proposed for the
            BS repos?
<aka_druid> or something close, or a subset of them
<aka_druid> I think there are slides of fosdem about it
<aka_druid> http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/7/77/FOSDEM_participating.pdf slides 13 and 14
<aka_druid> the rate thing as presented by henne for rpms
  <}-Tux-{> doesn't the BS already have such a feature like rating packages etc? (or at least it
            is planned to implement) won't we have then two different platforms/systems?
 <benJIman> }-Tux-{: Ideally they could be combined using api.opensuse.org and an api for ours,
            that will require some collaboration at the time though
<aka_druid> }-Tux-{, yeah, I thought just the same
   <yaloki> aka_druid, }-Tux-{: aggregation of ratings is an idea we'll have to explore
   <yaloki> benJIman's also thinking of a last.fm-alike proposal of "interesting packages"
 <benJIman> }-Tux-{: ultimately it might make sense to split api into build specific and user
            specific, but this isn't something we have to worry abut for some time
  <}-Tux-{> ok - if it's possible to "combine" both it is good:)
   <yaloki> *** AI, at some point, look into the oBS' rating system
 <benJIman> There is clearly going to be overlap which we can address with integration solutions
            in the future, but we need to worry about actually getting something together first.
  <}-Tux-{> yaloki: yep of course - i was just curious if both tools are intented to work together
  <}-Tux-{> in the future
   <yaloki> }-Tux-{: possibly
   <yaloki> }-Tux-{: if the oBS makes it possible

Yast2-mpp, Initial Activities

  <yaloki> the top priority as for now is benJIman's yast-mpp
<benJIman> mvidner is already working on getting this ready for factory & 10.3
  <yaloki> and things are looking pretty good wrt that
<benJIman> This will give us the "hook" we need in the base system to develop independantly
           from suse releases.
  <yaloki> + we have benJIman's thrawler code that is used on his webpin to retrieve and parse
           RPM-MD repositories
<benJIman> This should be relatively easy to port to whatever new database structure we need.
<benJIman> I'll be happy to work on this given a database design
  <yaloki> and BTW another interface will be web services, to be able to integrate it with other
           websites, desktop applications (e.g. yast2), etc..
<benJIman> We'll need parsers for other information like patterns, .repo files, rss feeds etc
           going forward too
  <yaloki> benJIman: and freshmeat.net project records (XML) ;)
<benJIman> RPM-MD is a well documented, and easy to parse format. Downsides are speed of parsing
           and size of metadata
  <yaloki> anyhow, we'll come up with a proper model to plug additional parsers and information
           sources
<benJIman> How are you placed timewise?
<benJIman> Are you going to be able to take on the majority of the design work?
  <yaloki> me ?
<benJIman> yes
  <yaloki> timewise, awful, as always ;)
  <yaloki> but doing the design is no problem
  <yaloki> that's my job
  <yaloki> (as in: that's what I do at work ;))
    <sPiN> my time is also fairly limited at the moment, i really dont have my own life togethr at
           this point. but i could knock out some css design
  <yaloki> we should try to poke jimmac if we need artwork ^^
<jhaygood> indeed, jimmac is really good at artwork

More About The Client Side

     <benJIman> jhaygood: did you want to say something about client side?
     <jhaygood> yes, once enough is specced out, the client side will have a nice easy to use browser
     <jhaygood> I'm considering python mostly, since it's easy enough to use
<bill-barriere> python ?
     <jhaygood> bill-barriere: python has lots of benefits.. the ability to use C++ code, both gtk
                and qt bindings, low barrier of entry :)
     <benJIman> jhaygood: you mentioned a repository browser which could be implemented right away
                I think
     <benJIman> jhaygood: has relatively little dependency on the other plans, compared to the
                application browser which really requires more metadata.
     <jhaygood> indeed, that's possible, using zypp's repo searching, listing abilities
     <jhaygood> my goal is to make it so that someone with not much experience in computers period
                can use it easily
     <jhaygood> even total computer newbies can still want to find cool new stuff to install
       <yaloki> and for that, we need descriptions, tags, browsing, categorisation, search,
                screenshots, comments, ratings, links to forum threads about it, links to
                Novell's bugzilla bugs about it, etc...
     <jhaygood> the future client-side client can go one step further, and actually show what's
                currently installed, what software that's installed has updates and upgrades (YOU
                only does updates, not upgrades), and can actually add the repos and install the
                software directly via libzypp
     <benJIman> Indeed.
       <yaloki> jhaygood: absolutely
       <yaloki> the primary client for installing/upgrading should be the desktop client
       <yaloki> but we all know a website can be extremely convenient, with RSS feeds and such
     <jhaygood> tho it won't be ready for 10.3, and for 10.3, yast-mpp + portal should be primary if
                we can get yast-mpp into factory before 10.3
       <yaloki> the ratings and possibly some sort of "stability level" attribute (stable/unstable)
                would help less experienced users in deciding whether they should get the latest version
                or stick with what comes with the distro
       <yaloki> and, of course, good integration with yast/zypp/whatever to install/upgrade it properly
       <yaloki> I really think it's doable, even if it's a huge amount of work
     <jhaygood> I'd say a few months, so it should be ready by the release after 10.3 :)
     <jhaygood> 100% totally ready and useable, specially if we can get the client-side into factory
                as soon after 10.3's release as possible
     <benJIman> jhaygood: should be possible to get metapackage stuff into 10.3
     <jhaygood> benJIman: I know, which will rock on its own :)
      <Beineri> benJIman: didn't aj add it to the patterns for alpha 4 already?
      <Beineri> benJIman: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-commit/2007-05/msg00385.html
     <benJIman> Beineri: it's not ready for release yet, but I think it's easily doable in the
                1-2months before freature freeze we have
       <yaloki> we should really make a call for testing on yast2-mpp
       <yaloki> AI benJIman, yaloki: set up a proper repository for yast2-mpp
     <benJIman> yaloki: when the known issues are fixed then we can do a big push
       <yaloki> benJIman: yep
     <benJIman> yaloki: it's going into yast svn
     <benJIman> Quite a few people were able to test it after it was last posted, and there are a
                number of things to fix now.

Hosting

   <yaloki> oh, also, another point: hosting
   <yaloki> we'll need a solution for decent hosting
   <yaloki> maybe set up a funding system for the openSUSE community
   <yaloki> but that's a different story
 <jhaygood> for hosting.. would US or Europe be best?
 <jhaygood> or both?
   <yaloki> jhaygood: IMO europe wrt legal situation
<aka_druid> java and other stuff limits the most common hosting solutions... meh
   <yaloki> aka_druid: root server
<aka_druid> yeah
   <yaloki> rather cheap in .de
 <jhaygood> aka_druid: not necessarily, VPS'es are fairly cheap
 <benJIman> java stuff will run as limited user anyway
 <jhaygood> dedicated not much more so anyway
   <yaloki> aka_druid: but java gives us the ability to really develop a good, solid OO
            model, not something crappily hacked with the poor abilities of PHP
   <yaloki> aka_druid: + with java you can do a lot of optimizations wrt caching, which you
            can't really with PHP
<aka_druid> kk
   <yaloki> but indeed, it might be a limiting factor for having developers
 <benJIman> There's not realy much problem with hosting, the entire corporate world uses
            .net or java

Package Attributes about Breaking SWPats/DMCA/...

<jhaygood> one thing about metadata, one item definely needs to be a "violates US DMCA /
           software patents", and let the client filter those results out by default in places
           where those packages would be illegal (USA)
  <yaloki> jhaygood: no filtering out
  <yaloki> jhaygood: except if it's configurable ;)
<jhaygood> yes, that's the plan
  <yaloki> ok
<jhaygood> and the default setting be based on location :)
  <yaloki> *** AI yaloki: model: additional attribute on packages:
                          "possibly violates patents/..."
<jhaygood> if you're in the US, you can willingly break the law and enable those packages,
           but by default, it only shows "legal" packages

Project Infrastructure

  <yaloki> we're also going to need a SVN repository for the code
<jhaygood> yaloki: i kinda set up a novell forge project, which has SVN hosting if we want
           all the related code in one repo?
<jhaygood> SVN hosting, bugzilla, mailing list, et al
<jhaygood> let me find the link...
<jhaygood> http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/OpenSUSE_Application_Manager
  <yaloki> could be a good idea to set up a mailing-list soon too
  <yaloki> maybe we should try to set up a mailing-list ASAP to gather ideas, discussions,
           interested people
  <yaloki> and make a lot of noise ;)
<jhaygood> appinstaller-devel@forge.novell.com it is
 <Beineri> yaloki: http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/appinstaller-devel
<jhaygood> there's also a "commit" ml at appinstaller-commit
  <yaloki> ok, let's blog about it and announce it on the MLs
  <yaloki> anyone else with questions, suggestions, ideas, participating ?
    <sPiN> i think we should talk about the blogging and announcing real quick...
  <yaloki> sPiN: what, too early ?
    <sPiN> no, i think we need to make sure we get as many eyes as possible
  <yaloki> sPiN: absolutely
    <sPiN> so who has planet suse access?
  <yaloki> sPiN: I'm aggregated there
    <sPiN> or access to any other widely read media?
  <yaloki> sPiN: we shouldn't announce it outside of the typical openSUSE channels
<jhaygood> yaloki: want to write the announce email? opensuse-project, zypp-devel, maybe
           yast-devel would be good
  <yaloki> ok, will do
<jhaygood> and of course cc appinstaller-devel :)
    <sPiN> well anywhere else we should announce it?
<jhaygood> outside of the MLs, planetsuse
  <yaloki> sPiN: I'll poke the forum folks to make a post there as well
    <sPiN> yeah that would be good
  <yaloki> *** AI yaloki: make noise
    <sPiN> whatever we need, lets figure out who has those skills and try to reach those people
  <yaloki> sPiN: yep
  <yaloki> initial plan should be to get as many people aboard as possible
    <sPiN> so do we think that planet suse and the ML, and perhaps a few forums will reach
           those people?
<jhaygood> java developers, web developers, artists, and python devs for client-side
  <yaloki> to help with coding (java backend, java website, yast2 module, python client), web
           design, artwork, domain (rpm/repos) experts, or just users with wishes, ideas,
           time, ...
  <yaloki> sPiN: got other ideas ?
    <sPiN> yaloki, umm not really... maybe announce on the opensuse artist ml?
  <yaloki> sPiN: if you're subbed there, please do ;)
    <sPiN> nope
  <yaloki> ok, I'll post there as well
    <sPiN> cool... so i think that will cover the people we are trying to reach

Initial Project Activities

    <sPiN> what order to things need to happen in?
  <yaloki> the first thing of all is to discuss the model
  <yaloki> the use cases, the ideas, the goals, ..
    <sPiN> right, and thats going to happen on a mailing list?
  <yaloki> sPiN: I'll start hacking a model as a base to discuss upon
<jhaygood> mailing lists are good for discussion
  <yaloki> basically what's over here:
           http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/files/swportal/domainmodel.png
  <yaloki> decorated with more comments, drawings, ..
  <yaloki> and possibly a java implementation of it
<jhaygood> adding new properties as well
  <yaloki> sPiN: why not ?
  <yaloki> sPiN: got a better idea ? ;)
    <sPiN> well i am odd man out on that because i do detest mailing lists so very
           very much
<jhaygood> sPiN: mailing lists also work around the whole time-zone issue
    <sPiN> im not saying do it otherwise.. but it would be nice to see a irc
           conversation
<jhaygood> specially since we're not all European
  <yaloki> well, sure, we can always discuss stuff on IRC as well
  <yaloki> I'm online every evening (CET) anyway, and benJIman 24h/day ;)
  <yaloki> sPiN: I can collect stuff discussed on IRC and post it on the ML
  <yaloki> I don't think we need a separate IRC room though ;))
<jhaygood> starting june, i'll always be online during EST/EDT (America/New_York)
  <yaloki> #opensuse-project could be used for that atm
  <yaloki> (I guess)
    <sPiN> pay no attention to me, i cant imagine i would have useful input on how
           to design application, but i would like to be involved in the webdesign project
  <yaloki> sPiN: you definitely will ;)
    <sPiN> cool, well just poke me when the time comes

Next Meeting, End

<jhaygood> next meeting, June 2, same time?
  <yaloki> jhaygood: ok
  <yaloki> NEXT MEETING: Sat June 2, 20:00 GMT (21:00 CET)
  <yaloki> ========= OFFICIAL END