Meetings/YaST Meeting 2007-02-14/transcript

From openSUSE

[15:55:55] <@notlocalhorst> ok, here we go
[15:56:06] <@notlocalhorst> Welcome to the first YaST meeting!
[15:56:06] <@notlocalhorst> As requested we will have now a YaST meeting, see
[15:56:06] <@notlocalhorst> http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/YaST_Meeting_2007-02-14
[15:56:06] <@notlocalhorst> The meeting is not moderated, so please only on topic questions
[15:56:06] <@notlocalhorst> about YaST. I will hand over to Edith (emap) now ...
[15:56:21] <@emap> Thanks everyone for your interest in the YaST development.
[15:56:38] <@emap> We have a short agenda.
[15:56:49] <@emap> But I guess more topics will come up.
[15:57:06] <@emap> First major point:
[15:57:13] <@emap> YaST enhancements and new features, which could be implemented by the community
[15:57:49] <@emap> First one listed in the wiki: Webcam module
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[15:58:12] <@emap> Is the proposer around?
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[15:58:52] <@emap> Hm, okay, maybe later...
[15:58:56] <fxrsliberty> If I may.... the DNS\DHCP modules are not very deep. there are several SAMBA issues that get fixed with manual mods to dhcp.conf .. is there a planned update?
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[15:59:17] <adrianS> Is it in general thinkable that we do something like with Google sommer of code ?
[15:59:35] <adrianS> I mean assigning a mentor from the existing YaST team to interessted developers ?
[15:59:51] <adrianS> to help them to start and consolidating the results ?
[15:59:54] <HuHa> "generally thinkable" is a very broad thing ;-)
[15:59:59] <@emap> If the project is worthwhile, yes.
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[16:00:21] <@emap> Of course, we have to concentrate our efforts.
[16:00:24] <adrianS> so, shall we document this as an open offer to get more interessted people ?
[16:00:36] <adrianS> for example on the YaST pages in opensuse.org ?
[16:01:19] <@emap> Yes. It would be great to have a page there to collect project ideas.
[16:01:23] <@emap> And follow ups.
[16:01:28] <duncanmv> please create a YaST_Community page and link from YaST, or give a name to our SOC program and put it there ;-)
[16:01:28] <HuHa> I suggest we ask the community members around here what and how much they would like to contribute
[16:01:40] <@emap> Track progress, mentor, maintenance issues.
[16:01:40] mcalmer [i=mc@nat/suse/x-a447b8af5782aa1b] has joined #opensuse-project
[16:01:59] <shashi_sa> Hi All, in SuSE, what is the right way to change position of a service in the booting sequence ? . My problem is, i have configured snort to log mysql, whenever my system boots, snort own't starts , and it is giving message "unable to connect mysql" . The reason is , snort is starting before mysql is UP . So , i would like change the sequnce , mysql should start before snort . Can anyone tell me how we can do this in SuSE ?
[16:02:10] <adrianS> http://en.opensuse.org/YaST lacks a development section ...
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[16:02:22] <duncanmv> no
[16:02:22] <@notlocalhorst> shashi_sa: please ask in #suse
[16:02:28] <shashi_sa> K
[16:02:29] <duncanmv> YaST_Development
[16:02:31] <HuHa> shashi_sa: that is muchmore likely a problem of dependencies in the boot scripts
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[16:03:08] <adrianS> duncanmv: do you assign this job to you ? :)
[16:03:09] duncanmv suggest support questions to be done in #opensuse
[16:03:29] <duncanmv> adrianS: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST_Development already exists
[16:03:30] <adrianS> creating the wiki YaST_Development page ?
[16:03:33] <adrianS> ah ..
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[16:03:46] <duncanmv> and hast quite a lot of information, including tutorial and tricks
[16:04:14] <@emap> Yes, before anyone commits to contributing, they might want to read up on what's awaiting for them.
[16:04:21] <HuHa> is anybody around here who has already gone through some of the tutorials and wants to go further?
[16:04:22] adrianS is sorry to overview that ..
[16:05:50] <@emap> Okay, next topic:
[16:05:56] <@emap> Raid module
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[16:06:04] <@emap> Is the requester around?
[16:06:20] <aka_druid_> raid module? doesnt yast2 disk ahndle that?
[16:06:27] <@notlocalhorst> yes
[16:06:34] <@notlocalhorst> in the partitioner
[16:06:46] <@emap> I wanted to find out what exactly the request was.
[16:07:01] <@notlocalhorst> so if the requester is not around hard to say what he/she really wants :-)
[16:07:04] <@emap> It was added to the wiki page.
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[16:07:18] <adrianS> if the requester is not here, simply ask the question on the wiki page and skip it here ....
[16:07:25] <@emap> Okay, I've got one more:
[16:07:32] <aka_druid_> the PM module hasnt bene on topic yet, has it?
[16:07:33] <@emap> XGL/Compiz or Beryl module
[16:07:42] <@notlocalhorst> nope
[16:07:52] <HuHa> aka_druid: PM?
[16:08:02] <mvidner> (all 3 enhancements were proposed by the same person, says wiki history)
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[16:08:14] <aka_druid_> HuHa: package manager
[16:08:20] <HuHa> OK
[16:08:29] <HuHa> aka_druid: any suggestions for it?
[16:08:49] <@notlocalhorst> could we please first answer the XGL question? thanks
[16:08:56] <fxrsliberty> I have a question
[16:09:09] <duncanmv> doesn't the XGL part belong to SAX?
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[16:09:11] <aka_druid_> HuHa: I hear all the tmie people complaingnin that sometimes they dont want the repos to be refreshed when all they want to do is see yast2 inst_source, and maybe have yast to use multiple http connections to download faster
[16:09:33] <aka_druid_> HuHa: the repo priorities I think its already addressed
[16:09:43] <mvidner> aka_druid_: refresh: known bug...
[16:09:55] <jsrain> aka_druid_: expect it to be fixed in 10.3
[16:09:56] <aka_druid_> and to polish zypper, so we dont need zmd in any way in 10.3
[16:10:49] <@notlocalhorst> what about the multiple http suggestion?
[16:10:58] <fxrsliberty> isn't ZMD a part of Novell's Zenworks patch management commercial stuff?
[16:11:02] <duncanmv> aka_druid: that is in progress. mvidner implemented a shell. And libzypp is getting serious love in the following months to make it faster.
[16:11:04] <Stano> notlocalhorst: tricky
[16:11:13] <duncanmv> fxrsliberty: zmd is the client, and it is gpl.
[16:11:31] <aka_druid_> another suggestion would be to have a style guideline for the modules, so they look similar. I remember in 9.3 the firewall module was completely out of the "look" of the toher modules, I think it can be bad
[16:11:44] <aka_druid_> duncanmv: nice
[16:11:45] <HuHa> aka_druid: we do have a style guide
[16:11:59] <mvidner> "Unable to remove non-reachable inst-source with zypper" https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=227364
[16:12:01] <aka_druid_> HuHa: publish, please
[16:12:02] <HuHa> aka_druid: and it's in the process of being made accessible to the public
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[16:12:05] <HuHa> WIP
[16:12:07] <fxrsliberty> I am very supportive of Novell...however I think opensuse needs to solidify it's update process
[16:12:09] <aka_druid_> ok
[16:12:30] <fxrsliberty> guru seems to have it all figured out
[16:12:33] <@emap> aka_druid: we are working on revising the YaST style guide
[16:12:53] <@notlocalhorst> emap: is there a timeframe for that?
[16:13:07] <HuHa> notlocalhorst: contact mschmidkunz
[16:13:16] <@notlocalhorst> k
[16:13:18] <@emap> notlocalhorst: ideally within the next two months. mschmidkunz is involved.
[16:13:40] <fxrsliberty> I am very glad to hear that ZMD isn't going to be in 10.3 simply for the sake of making one less choice
[16:14:00] <duncanmv> fxrsliberty: well, in 10.2 you already have the choice to not to use it
[16:14:06] <adrianS> zmd will be most likely in 10.3, but there is a good chance that it will not be default ...
[16:14:16] <mvidner> aka_druid_: multiple http conns: IMHO low priority, so make sure that there is an enhancement request in bugzilla
[16:14:24] <fxrsliberty> not an easy to see choice
[16:14:25] <apokryphos-> still, the problem is that it's enabled by default
[16:14:26] <aka_druid_> mvidner: ok
[16:14:28] <HuHa> it was a bit tricky to avoid zmd etc. in 10.2, but it was possible
[16:14:28] <duncanmv> you have a openSUSE package management pattern, and a Enterprise package management pattern.
[16:14:31] <aka_druid_> adrianS: low priority?
[16:14:35] <aka_druid_> waht do you mean?
[16:15:00] <adrianS> aka_druid_: you wanted to ask mvidner ?
[16:15:08] <aka_druid_> If I cant speak for the aprt of the users, and Im sure I can on this topic, its amximum urgent really really top #1 priority
[16:15:09] <fxrsliberty> HuHa: you are 1000% correct
[16:15:24] <aka_druid_> adrianS: no, its about the removal of zmd not being a priority
[16:15:39] <Stano> aka_druid_: it is a priority
[16:15:40] <duncanmv> aka_druid: what is the point removin git
[16:15:56] <@notlocalhorst> remove from default installation
[16:15:57] <adrianS> aka_druid_: I didn't spoke about priority, it just to early in the process to make a final decision
[16:15:59] <duncanmv> the priority is to make the lightweight stack full featured and complete.
[16:16:02] <duncanmv> ah ok
[16:16:09] <apokryphos-> aka_druid_: I don't mind if it's available, but I would if it were to be default. Jaeger mentioned some time ago though that it wouldn't be.
[16:16:11] <aka_druid_> duncanmv: nobody likes it, nobody needs it, it pissed lots of people, a disaster in marketing, amde 10.1 the worst suse in history and last but not least, I dont like it
[16:16:16] <fxrsliberty> I just reinstsalled 10.2 last night(on it now) and it took several hours to get updating to work
[16:16:29] <aka_druid_> duncanmv: and its kinda of my personal crusado to have it out of the default isntallation.
[16:16:49] <HuHa> fxrsliberty: well, it's not _that_ hard - get rid of mono-core and you're halfway there
[16:17:11] <fxrsliberty> i dissabled it and installed SMARTPM
[16:17:55] <fxrsliberty> why isn't there an "update.opensuse.org"
[16:18:17] <adrianS> fxrsliberty: download.opensuse.org will become that
[16:18:28] <@notlocalhorst> nice
[16:18:35] <adrianS> updates will go to opensuse.org for 10.3
[16:18:38] <aka_druid_> HuHa: there was another suggestion taht yast PM and online_update maybe they could have some default addresses already added
[16:18:51] <aka_druid_> or preloaded in boot.iso
[16:19:00] <benJIman> aka_druid_: they do, not for netinstall though
[16:19:03] <fxrsliberty> it takes to much looking around to get patching and add ons setup ..it needs to be a priority
[16:19:03] <apokryphos-> cool
[16:19:04] <HuHa> that's what happens during registration
[16:19:17] <aka_druid_> benJIman: not for online_update too, iirc
[16:19:41] <HuHa> aka_druid: the problem with static default addresses is that they might easily change over the life cycle of the distro
[16:19:56] <aka_druid_> HuHa: thats another personal request of mine. Stop doing that
[16:20:01] <HuHa> that' why they are being retrieved over the web during installation
[16:20:12] <benJIman> AJaeger promised ZMD would not be installed by default on 10.3 btw
[16:20:27] <aka_druid_> the address for suse releases used to ftp.suse.com/suse/$arch/$version
[16:20:31] <adrianS> HuHa: for that we can default to download.o.o for example and redirect to the correct ones
[16:20:33] <HuHa> aka_druid: that's not completely up to us - if a major mirror goes away, we need to handle that
[16:20:46] <aka_druid_> so its not suppsoed to change in next release it should simply add a new dir with new $version
[16:20:57] <HuHa> adrianS: then please let's make an official request for that
[16:21:04] <adrianS> so we can handle this via the redirector and we do already ..
[16:21:06] <jdsn> aka_druid_: stop doing the registration? but the only thing it does is to fetch an update source near to you
[16:21:18] <adrianS> since the 10.2 trees are already added by default
[16:21:19] <HuHa> jdsn: stop changing the locations
[16:21:53] <fxrsliberty> the system should only care about update.opensuse.org and then the site could redirect
[16:22:05] <adrianS> HuHa: we will discuss at fosdem for criterias what shall become part of the openSUSE default distro
[16:22:09] <HuHa> fxrsliberty: that's basically what adrianS suggested
[16:22:20] <fxrsliberty> ahhh
[16:22:25] <aka_druid_> jdsn: Im not sure if it was a problem with registration epr se or with zmd being slow, but lots of people have a problem with registering. I recommend all of them to simply catch an update mirror and add to yast inst_source, isntead of doing the registration
[16:22:27] <adrianS> so these criterias may also used for additional repositories
[16:22:28] <fxrsliberty> he is a smart man
[16:22:42] <HuHa> fxrsliberty: don't tell him, it might go to his head ;-)
[16:22:43] <aka_druid_> jdsn: registration is an annoying procedure, by the way, specially when there is no need
[16:22:47] <fxrsliberty> registration fails on laptop with wireless
[16:23:16] <HuHa> aka_druid: you don't actually have to register to get an update server URL, only let it connect to the server
[16:23:26] <aka_druid_> I myself must have installed some dozens of opensuse systems, never did a single registration
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[16:23:54] <aka_druid_> HuHa: but if one doesnt register, and is not aware of the mirror "old style" he will not know what to add
[16:23:56] <HuHa> aka_druid: you don't need to with openSUSE (unlike with business products like SLES)
[16:23:59] <jdsn> aka_druid: "simply catch an update mirror and add to yast inst_source" thats what registration does
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[16:24:57] <fxrsliberty> the system should get all that on first boot when it goes to update.opensuse.org
[16:25:28] <aka_druid_> jdsn: I know it, you know it... joe doe doesnt, and he starts the "conspiracy theories"
[16:25:34] <HuHa> fxrsliberty: the whole point of having this at the registration module is to have a working internet connection
[16:25:40] <fxrsliberty> build the box>got into yast>choose online update and away it goes!
[16:25:51] <HuHa> and not try to do anything behind the user's back ("E.T. call home")
[16:26:15] <aka_druid_> HuHa: taht check itnernet connection is also a thing that I belive it should go away.. it fails, carshes, isntallation is incomplete, cant login, a disaster. Also a thing I never do neither recommend
[16:26:25] <HuHa> aka_druid: huh?!
[16:26:25] <adrianS> fxrsliberty: we do not want to install insecure systems by default, it should have an update source by default.
[16:26:36] <HuHa> aka_druid: then how do you want to handle dial-up connections?
[16:27:01] <aka_druid_> HuHa: do exactly the same, but after the system is fully configured
[16:27:03] <fxrsliberty> not talking about loosening security, just making it a post installation process
[16:27:13] <aka_druid_> like after showing the release notes in kde or gnome?
[16:27:20] <fxrsliberty> yes
[16:27:22] <adrianS> aka_druid_: that might be to late to provide fixes
[16:27:30] <fxrsliberty> it doesn
[16:27:33] <HuHa> aka_druid: for one thing, if it crashes, this is a serious bug (-> bugzilla)
[16:27:46] <HuHa> aka_druid: for another, you can always restart stage2 of the installation
[16:27:49] <fxrsliberty> it doesn't matter if the registration process causes failures
[16:27:49] <aka_druid_> HuHa: if the mirror lags to time-out, the suer will think its a crash
[16:28:14] <aka_druid_> HuHa: was the case for 10.1
[16:28:16] <HuHa> and if we don't do it, the user will never get updates
[16:28:20] <fxrsliberty> it failed on me last night
[16:28:52] <fxrsliberty> the user doesn't get any updates from M$ unless they act after installation
[16:28:58] <HuHa> we are not M$
[16:29:04] <fxrsliberty> we are better
[16:29:17] <fxrsliberty> but we don;t have to reinvent the wheel
[16:29:27] <HuHa> we don't
[16:29:37] <HuHa> and that stage2 of installation _is_ post-installation
[16:29:39] <HuHa> you can live without it
[16:29:47] <HuHa> only it's a lot more fun to do it
[16:29:49] <Stano> except for the root password
[16:30:01] <HuHa> you'll have a working system with very little left over to configure
[16:30:08] <aka_druid_> HuHa: and if it crashes before youve put a root password john doe had just lost 1.5 hours installing his sys
[16:30:36] <HuHa> I can't quite follow that reasoning
[16:30:46] <fxrsliberty> i have had that happen when the registration process crashes
[16:30:48] <HuHa> did it ever crash on you before you could enter the root PW?
[16:31:12] <aka_druid_> HuHa: several times, specially when people clicked in check itnernet connection
[16:31:25] <fxrsliberty> no gui , no login user , time to reinstall m$ style
[16:31:33] <jdsn> fxrsliberty: registration is in stage2 and after the root password
[16:31:34] <aka_druid_> hear people asking "whats the default root password of suse" in irc all the time
[16:31:34] <HuHa> IIRC the root PW is written to /etc/shadow just after you enter it
[16:31:37] <duncanmv> are we fixing bugs in this meeting?
[16:31:59] <fxrsliberty> jdsn: i know wierd huh
[16:32:02] <HuHa> aka_druid: if that really happens, please file a bug report
[16:32:06] <duncanmv> if yast crashes on internet check, that is a bug, report it and make it red, but please
[16:32:08] <HuHa> but it never happened to me
[16:32:15] <@notlocalhorst> HuHa: is the old touch runme_at_boot trick still an valid option?
[16:32:20] <HuHa> yes
[16:32:36] <HuHa> but you can just as easily simply call that start script manually
[16:33:03] <HuHa> you might have to kill an extra mgetty on console 2, but other than that, it just works
[16:33:17] <@notlocalhorst> so why don't read the grub comand line and make an option "stage2" or something and document it .... this would help if it crashes before root pw
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[16:33:48] <aka_druid_> notlocalhorst: would be a neat trick
[16:34:36] <HuHa> I'd prefer if we simply only remove that file after we are sure it actually worked
[16:34:44] <HuHa> so you'd simply boot into stage2 again
[16:34:46] <fxrsliberty> this is about fixes for yast.....what is the status of the DHCP module is the server config gui going to include more options
[16:35:16] <HuHa> fxrsliberty: I understood this was about how community members can contribute to things like that ;-)
[16:35:36] <@notlocalhorst> HuHa: no, i ment that you have the option to enter "stage2" at the command line if you need it. not used normally ... thats a 2 line change in the script i guess
[16:35:37] <fxrsliberty> what are the core programmers doing with it?
[16:35:37] <@emap> That was the original idea.
[16:35:50] <jsrain> fxrsliberty: Can you tell which options you are missing?
[16:36:03] <HuHa> notlocalhorst: why don't we simply document YaST2.Second-Stage ?
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[16:36:26] <HuHa> I'd hate to have my grub menu cluttered with stuff like that
[16:36:27] <bill-barriere> "<HuHa> but it never happened to me" your sitting next to the damnned server on a 100mbit link... no way it never timeout, cant belive
[16:36:44] <fxrsliberty> well in SLES there are a bunch of issues configuring SAMBA and DHCP.... but I haven't delt with it in a while
[16:36:52] <HuHa> bill-barriere: don't you think I am using our own stuff at home, too?
[16:36:54] <@notlocalhorst> HuHa: because you have to boot your system in bin/sh, remount /, touch file ... it's mich easier to add one parameter at the commandline
[16:37:13] <HuHa> notlocalhorst: my point is that the root PW should get written right after you entered it
[16:37:19] <HuHa> so you can log in as root IIRC
[16:37:46] <@emap> So, is there anyone out there who actually would like to contribute to YaST development?
[16:37:54] <jsrain> fxrsliberty: feel free to send your ideas to me anytime later... jsrain(at)suse.cz
[16:38:14] <fxrsliberty> jsrain, thanks I will
[16:38:25] <benJIman> emap: yes, meeting time isn't very convenient though
[16:38:33] <mvidner> jsrain: is the team lead of yast in prague
[16:38:56] <@emap> benjlman: good! :-)
[16:39:13] <@emap> It's probably best to find another means of communication
[16:39:14] <duncanmv> emap: benJIman is the author of the single click install I mentioned in the last meeting
[16:39:15] <HuHa> benJIman: that's the problem with a project covering 24+ time zones ;-)
[16:39:24] <adrianS> what can we do to encourage more people in YaST development, anouncing a "google SoC" project via opensuse-announce ?
[16:39:35] <@emap> Ah, a YaST veteran, then.
[16:39:49] <[daemon]> give em goodies :)
[16:39:54] <mvidner> see also http://en.opensuse.org/YaST_Team
[16:39:59] <@emap> Yes, I think we should organize something like that.
[16:40:06] <adrianS> maybe with some funding when something got successfully implemented ?
[16:40:09] <aka_druid_> [daemon] in a meeting? oh dear
[16:40:13] <HuHa> adrianS: frankly, what I would welcome a lot more would be people steadily contributing, not a once-in-a-lifetime effort
[16:40:24] <aka_druid_> adrianS: oh, debian was working in something like that
[16:40:26] <mvidner> we want you for life :)
[16:40:30] <aka_druid_> dunc-tank, right?
[16:40:44] <@emap> Once a YaSTie always a YaSTie. :-)
[16:40:50] HuHa runs
[16:40:51] <adrianS> HuHa: right, but how can we get more interesset of more people and make it easy for them to start ?
[16:40:52] <bill-barriere> we want you for life.. we want your soul
[16:41:07] <fxrsliberty> as much as I like the Idea of opensourcing yast, I think it should be the burden of Novell to make it as usable as possible in order to use YAST as a differentiating component for sales!
[16:41:28] <benJIman> HuHa: Well I'm at work
[16:41:29] <aka_druid_> fxrsliberty: son.. yast is opensource
[16:41:53] <HuHa> fxrsliberty: that translates to "do your stuff alone and let us make demands"
[16:41:55] <benJIman> I think offering mentoring is a start
[16:41:57] <HuHa> that's not how it works
[16:42:05] <@emap> fxrsliberty: and its been our burden - ah pleasure - for a long time
[16:42:05] <adrianS> fxrsliberty: right and that problem remains for Novell, but that does not mean that others can't use YaST in their stuff in a different way and develop additional stuff for that
[16:42:05] <@notlocalhorst> i think the idea is great. some people hopefully will then think about doing a YaST module. The offer to help them will maybe speed it up
[16:42:08] <fxrsliberty> aka_druid: I know but it should also be Novell's most invested in componnent!
[16:42:54] <@emap> fxrsliberty: I'll tell my manager!
[16:42:59] <aka_druid_> it will always be a novell thing, or a suse thing.. maybe due to the fact that it was born clsoed source...
[16:43:06] <fxrsliberty> want me to help?
[16:43:11] <ryanarn> One thing I'd like to see would be up to date information/documentation on how YaST expects its repositories to be formatted based on distribution version. I'm having a hard time figuring out the necessities.
[16:43:15] <aka_druid_> I dont see yast in debian, mandrake and etc
[16:43:21] <mvidner> anyway, I could be a mentor
[16:43:24] <HuHa> aka_druid: no, due to the fact that systems management is a damn complex thing
[16:43:48] <duncanmv> you won't , you need a 2 years tranning to build it. (j/k :-P )
[16:43:55] bill-barriere want a usable lirc module
[16:44:05] <bill-barriere> duncanmv, was it really a joke ?
[16:44:05] <mvidner> oh yes, building. that is my fault :)
[16:44:21] <duncanmv> you dont need to build to develop modules anyway ;-)
[16:44:24] <duncanmv> so no excuse
[16:44:36] <duncanmv> well, what I would like to implement with help of the community, is to make the opensuse-updater really eyecandy and eyelooking
[16:44:58] <duncanmv> so feel free to send me (or post to the wiki) mokups, and icons
[16:45:20] <apokryphos-> that would be nice
[16:45:49] microchip_ wants more eye candy, tastes yummy
[16:45:59] <metavoid> talking about ycp documentation, it's far from excellent, afaik http://forgeftp.novell.com/yast/doc/SL10.2/tutorials/index.html is the only tutorial, right? therefore I have to examine sources line by line to understand how it works
[16:46:07] <fxrsliberty> I would like to see only one update service offered during installation, let the rest be post installation tweaks!
[16:46:08] <kobliha> BTW: kind of-up-to-date documentation is here: http://forgeftp.novell.com/yast/doc/SL10.2/ (including tutorial)
[16:46:19] <duncanmv> yes, you dont buy a dual core machine with a dual core gfx to see plain QListViewItems ;-)
[16:46:29] <bill-barriere> metavoid, there was a video at last year fosdem too
[16:46:30] aka_druid_ takes note
[16:46:38] <ryanarn> kobliha: does that cover setting up third-party repositories?
[16:46:40] <kobliha> metavoid was faster
[16:46:42] <mvidner> metavoid: please do suggest improvements
[16:47:06] <kobliha> ryanarn: what exactly does it mean?
[16:47:13] <duncanmv> http://en.opensuse.org/YaST_Development has pointer to all the previous URLs, plus a module tutorial
[16:47:23] <bill-barriere> duncanmv, no we buy those cpu just to run beagle and zmd ..
[16:47:31] <microchip_> lol
[16:47:32] <duncanmv> bill-barriere: heh ;-)
[16:48:01] <mvidner> and everyone, consider joining http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/yast-dev and asking us there
[16:48:04] <fxrsliberty> is it possible to create a script on the community page to add all the popular resources to the yast update
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[16:48:29] <HuHa> duncanmv: I think that Wiki page doesn't have my FOSDEM tutorial yet, right?
[16:48:31] <HuHa> http://www.suse.de/~sh/
[16:48:43] <kobliha> metavoid: that tutorial would be too long for explaining line-by-line, but we might do another tutorial which would do that
[16:48:44] <adrianS> fxrsliberty: you can just create a bash script calling zypper ....
[16:48:49] <ryanarn> kobliha: I've been working from this page: http://en.opensuse.org/Creating_YaST_Installation_Sources but it isn't really clear on what tools are available for generating repositories, all the necessities, patterns, selections, repomd, package-signing, etc. It is very cursory and non-cohesive.
[16:49:00] <microchip_> what would be nice to see in YaST PM is if it could give more meaningful messages if something goes wrong and not just bailing out/crashing or giving cryptic messages that no one understands.... I've seen a few people on SLS complain about that
[16:49:08] <metavoid> mvidner, I still learning ycp, but the tutorial is incomplete, there should be examples with line by line code descriptions
[16:49:19] <HuHa> duncanmv: disregard, I am stupid
[16:49:34] <mvidner> metavoid: please join the ML and ask 5 questions a day
[16:49:36] <metavoid> kobliha, very nice, how soon?
[16:49:38] <fxrsliberty> adrains: i don't know how to write those , was asking you guys to post one
[16:49:40] <aka_druid_> ryanarn: theare only 2 types: the repo-md style and suse-tags style
[16:49:53] <HuHa> ryanarn: I know the difference is academic from an outside view, but that kind of documentation would go to the ZYPP docs, not to the YaST docs
[16:49:54] <metavoid> mvidner, which ml?
[16:49:56] <aka_druid_> ryanarn: I think there is a apge explaining that in SDB article, maybe you are duplicating
[16:50:02] <mvidner> yast-dev, see above
[16:50:16] <kobliha> ryanarn: I see, mvidner should know more about creating repositories, he has some script for that, mvidner?
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[16:50:22] <jsrain> aka_druid_: you can have a plain directory just containing RPMs, it works as well with ZYPP
[16:50:33] <aka_druid_> jsrain: ah yeah, and plain dir
[16:50:56] <kobliha> metavoid: how soon? well, what exactly would you like to explain there?
[16:51:04] <ryanarn> aka_druid that's what I've gathered... Is the YaST repomd format conformant to a standard? I saw mailing list posts that indicated that YaST expects non-standard repomd information.
[16:51:26] <metavoid> kobliha, how soon the new "full" howto would be released?
[16:51:58] <kobliha> metavoid: it depends what would developers need to have in it, of course.
[16:52:11] <jsrain> ryanarn: Yes, we needed to add some more attributes. However, the standard YUM metadata format should work as well
[16:52:24] <aka_druid_> ryanarn: should be the normal repo-md format, as used by YUM too
[16:52:33] <kobliha> metavoid: there is a list yast-dev@forge.novell.com where you can request such thing
[16:52:35] <benJIman> jsrain: you're adding to rpm-md?
[16:52:50] <benJIman> jsrain: how are you doing this, adding additional optional files, or extra elements in the xml?
[16:52:51] <aka_druid_> benJIman: what about that thing of having deltas for the metadata?
[16:52:52] <kobliha> metavoid: or request help for explaining something
[16:53:09] <duncanmv> aka_druid: we got a feature entry for that, today
[16:53:14] <ryanarn> jsrain: YaST is very gracious in what it'll accept for repos but the ambiguity is what makes it difficult to determine problems.
[16:53:28] <fxrsliberty> will it ever be possible to click on link and have the system recognize that action as a "add as repository" request?
[16:53:29] <jsrain> benJIman: I meant extending the attributes which ZYPP uses.
[16:53:32] <aka_druid_> duncanmv: nice, it was something we ewre talking about some time ago
[16:53:35] <aka_druid_> glad it make it
[16:53:45] <duncanmv> aka_druid: I spent some time looking how debian does it
[16:53:55] <ryanarn> jsrain: does the SLES provided createrepo write the enhanced repomd files or the YUM compliant ones?
[16:53:57] <HuHa> fxrsliberty: would you really want to have that in your normal browser?
[16:54:09] <jsrain> ryanarn: I'm aware of it, however, the log usually helps a lot in case of problems
[16:54:15] <jsrain> ryanarn: don't know :-(
[16:54:16] <duncanmv> ryanarn: we cant use standard repo-md they dont suppor tpatches and products
[16:54:17] <kobliha> Importnat information: YaST != ZYPP
[16:54:18] <duncanmv> yum sucks
[16:54:19] <fxrsliberty> HuHa: why not?
[16:54:22] <duncanmv> we are the standard
[16:54:24] <duncanmv> :-)
[16:54:52] <duncanmv> http://en.opensuse.org/Standards/Rpm_Metadata ours is even documented
[16:54:53] <HuHa> fxrsliberty: because you'd get it for _all_ URLs that don't have an exact MIME type defined? Like directories?
[16:54:54] <mvidner> oh well, zypp is a subproject of yast. duncan, we own j00 :)
[16:54:58] <ryanarn> duncanmv: so is YaST moving away from the suse-tags repos?
[16:55:01] <fxrsliberty> if the browser calls zypp and then zypp takes over
[16:55:02] <aka_druid_> by te way, any doo reason to ahve 2 repo standards, isntead of one?
[16:55:04] <bill-barriere> duncanmv, so said ms when looking at oasis
[16:55:16] <aka_druid_> s/doo/good/ damn laggy ssh
[16:55:35] <kobliha> Official link to YaST documentation, mailing-lists, etc: http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/YaST
[16:55:40] <duncanmv> mvidner: last time I checked I was in the yast team , not zypp team, or is ma my teamleader now? :-P
[16:55:45] <Stano> repomd is very unefficient
[16:55:55] <aka_druid_> Stano: so why we use it?
[16:56:12] <Stano> it's more accepted standard
[16:56:14] <duncanmv> bill-barriere: yum format does not exist. period. to know what they do, you have to read the python code.
[16:56:24] <aka_druid_> Stano: ok. Point made.
[16:56:35] <ryanarn> Does anyone know of some scripts that'll generate pattern (.pat) information. I was surprised to see this in the newer repositories. create_packages_descr doesn't seem to do it.
[16:56:47] <duncanmv> ryanarn: good question
[16:56:58] <HuHa> we are again drifting offtopic
[16:57:04] <duncanmv> ryanarn: and if our autobuild team implement the diff stuff, we need to enhance the create_repo tools
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[16:57:24] <bill-barriere> ryanarn, vim ...
[16:57:43] <mvidner> http://en.opensuse.org/Inst-source-utils
[16:57:47] <mvidner> hmm, no patterns there
[16:58:11] <fxrsliberty> HuHa: what about using XML to initiate the auto repo install?
[16:58:15] <adrianS> pattern generation will most likely become part of the opensuse build service at some later steps ....
[16:58:20] <jsrain> ryanarn: the add-on creator is able to define patterns, but it is a GUI tool, not a script
[16:58:41] <HuHa> fxrsliberty: what would using XML improve?
[16:58:48] <bill-barriere> and while it cross my mind could it be possible to add simple wrapper to build like y2pmbuild had eg: y2pmbuild-10.1 etc
[16:59:03] <fxrsliberty> just asking ..
[16:59:06] <bill-barriere> build-10.2 build-10.1 etc
[16:59:25] <ryanarn> basically I'm just trying to imply that the documentation isn't very strong in this realm. I'm basically having to look at the suse 10.2 repository and modify my scripts to create my repos by reverse engineering and using fragments of other people's scripts.
[16:59:25] <bill-barriere> and some kind of real config not just env variable
[16:59:41] <mvidner> http://en.opensuse.org/Patterns/Definition_Language seems stale
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[17:00:10] <fxrsliberty> HuHa: can you point me to some kind of paper on the topic of autorepo add
[17:00:24] <HuHa> duncanmv should know more details
[17:00:33] <ryanarn> jsrain: that's unfortunate.. We contract a third party to build our packages and create the repos using scripts I provide. GUI is out of the question.
[17:00:39] <duncanmv> what is autorepo add?
[17:01:17] <jsrain> ryanarn: I understand your concern, however, I'm not aware of any other way
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[17:01:51] <fxrsliberty> duncanmv: i made the term up to discribe my idea of be able to click on a .repo file and have yast automatically add the update source
[17:02:14] <duncanmv> fxrsliberty: think we already have that implemented
[17:02:20] duncanmv is not sure
[17:02:27] <fxrsliberty> i wanted to read up on it
[17:02:34] <mvidner> fxrsliberty: should be pretty easy: zypper service-add -f foo.repo
[17:02:45] <ryanarn> jsrain: from my experience the .pat files aren't necessary but when will that change? Last time I checked the documentation wiki I've been working from it indicated that the content file is suppose to contain the SHA1 sums of the .rpm files and now that's changed to SHA1 sums of .pat files. What's really going to be expected?
[17:02:55] <adrianS> duncanmv: no, it is not yet implemented
[17:03:04] <mvidner> or even zypper service-add -f http://example.org/foo.repo
[17:03:11] <adrianS> we lack basically a desktop file calling the right yast module
[17:03:11] <bill-barriere> mvidner, register .repo as a mime type then ?
[17:03:12] <apokryphos-> mvidner: why doesn't zypper auto-detect that? You shouldn't need the option
[17:03:19] <fxrsliberty> not looking for more command line options but a real solution for "billy jo-bob" to add service repositories
[17:03:23] <jsrain> ryanarn: I don't think that they would ever become mandatory
[17:03:25] <adrianS> we can call zypper, but that would be not GUI based ...
[17:03:48] <duncanmv> mvidner: is that code in zypp or zypper?
[17:03:49] <adrianS> duncanmv: but it is my AI to make fate request for that ... WIP ....
[17:04:05] <mvidner> well yes, the missing thing is a mime definition for the desktop
[17:04:19] <duncanmv> mvidner: because if it is zypp it can be acceded by ycp just like benJIman did with his click-and-run
[17:04:24] <adrianS> right, but I think we want a GUI to report problems or success
[17:04:31] <mvidner> zypper
[17:05:02] <adrianS> mvidner: creating a scripty which popsup a dialog with the result ?
[17:05:20] <fxrsliberty> cause even after 2 full years on SUSE i'm still "billy jo-bob" LOL
[17:05:40] <ryanarn> my customers are not going to like it when YaST is barking at them because my repositories aren't signed properly but I'm not finding concise documentation on what YaST expects for signing packages either. Can you see my problems here? I really don't like cargo-cult scripting.
[17:05:46] <mvidner> adrianS: can you point me to some docs (freedesktop.org?)
[17:06:01] adrianS thinks that might be easier to implement than to create a fate request ;)
[17:06:01] <ryanarn> well I think I've beat this dead horse enough.
[17:06:13] <duncanmv> ryanarn: what would be not properly signed?
[17:06:13] <adrianS> mvidner: I will send you a script and a .desktop file, okay ?
[17:06:32] <mvidner> ryanarn: all valid concerns. IMO we just do not know what users need
[17:06:45] <adrianS> freedesktop.org would help you not really for 100%
[17:06:51] <mvidner> because we keep listening to out managers, not to opensuse mailing lists :)
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[17:07:07] <duncanmv> ryanarn: I will update http://en.opensuse.org/Standards for the signatures part of both metadata formats
[17:07:13] <ryanarn> duncanmv: I'm not sure what YaST expects to be signed, what keys are necessary, and what sums are necessary.
[17:07:17] <mvidner> adrianS: ok whatever, i thought kde+gnome would be nice
[17:07:21] <ryanarn> duncanmv: thank you!
[17:07:36] <adrianS> mvidner: I will do the kde stuff and notify the gnome people ...
[17:07:43] <HuHa> any more development-related issues?
[17:07:50] <@notlocalhorst> ok, let's come to an end ... let's take one last question ....
[17:08:22] <@notlocalhorst> nothing? :-)
[17:08:22] <@emap> Now everyone's shy...
[17:08:25] <@notlocalhorst> hehe
[17:08:30] <HuHa> 10
[17:08:33] <fxrsliberty> well ...USER here!!! ... I need to got to a product page go to there download section and be able to click on link that says suse repo and get there software as part of my software management choices
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[17:08:47] <HuHa> not development related, sorry
[17:08:51] <HuHa> 9
[17:08:54] <mvidner> HuHa: well no
[17:08:58] <duncanmv> fxrsliberty: benJIman has a solution for that
[17:09:05] <fxrsliberty> cool
[17:09:06] <duncanmv> fxrsliberty: we will try to integrate it
[17:09:11] <mvidner> it shows that people do not want yast2-quake
[17:09:19] <mvidner> they want better package management
[17:09:20] <duncanmv> fxrsliberty: but he needs to kick our ****s more
[17:09:56] <fxrsliberty> sorry duncanmv..misunderstood some of the communications
[17:10:15] <fxrsliberty> taking a valium now ;)
[17:10:21] <@notlocalhorst> ok, let's call it a day ... thanks everbody for the time and questions ... we will keep you updated, log will be soon on the meetings page ...