Meetings/Status Meeting 2007-03-28/transcript

From openSUSE

[17:04:35] <@henne> Welcome to the openSUSE Status Meeting!
[17:04:40] <@henne> This meeting is meant to discuss the latest developments in and around openSUSE.
[17:04:46] <@henne> The topics for this meeting are:
[17:04:56] <@henne> 1. Status Distribution
[17:04:56] <@henne> 2. Status Communication
[17:04:56] <@henne> 3. Status Buildservice
[17:04:56] <@henne> 4. Status Events
[17:04:56] <@henne> 5. Questions & Answers wiki
[17:04:58] <@henne> 6. Questions & Answers channel
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[17:05:21] <@henne> lets go. First topic: Status Distribution. AJaeger?
[17:05:26] <AJaeger> Yes, Sir!
[17:05:45] <AJaeger> Ok, I found on the web page also the topic "Roadmap, feature list and media layout progress?"
[17:05:52] <AJaeger> Michael, do you want to say something here?
[17:06:19] <adrianS> his not yet online
[17:06:20] <AJaeger> We're two weeks after Alpha2 - that means two more weeks to Alpha3. We've integrated GNOME 2.18 and Kernel 2.6.21 RC5 now in the distribution and are currently
[17:06:22] <adrianS> but in a minute
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[17:06:42] <AJaeger> building an internal Alpha2plus to see how stable it is.
[17:07:19] <AJaeger> Michael: Roadmap, feature list and media layout was a question for you.
[17:07:25] <michl19> ;-)
[17:07:37] <AJaeger> I found a couple of questions on the wiki, let me answer them first:
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[17:07:41] <michl19> on the roadmap still no final decision
[17:07:42] <AJaeger> Question "Will there be a replacement for the outdated teTeX distribution? Such
[17:07:42] <AJaeger> as TeXlive for example? Would be very very nice :)"
[17:07:42] <AJaeger> Answer: TeXLive will be in 10.3 Alpha3.
[17:08:04] <michl19> but I can give a answer in the week after Easter
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[17:08:06] <AJaeger> So, this is a big YES! We're currently in the process of doing the move and it looks fine.
[17:08:14] <AJaeger> Question Will the integration of yast and gnome control center be
[17:08:14] <AJaeger> improved? It is a little bit confusing that, for instance, the mouse
[17:08:14] <AJaeger> or "audio" can be adjusted via gnome control center and for different
[17:08:14] <AJaeger> but related settings one has to use yast. It would be nice to have at
[17:08:14] <AJaeger> least a reference, like a button, to open the associated yast-module
[17:08:14] <AJaeger> (like "yast sound" and "yast mouse model"), within the relevant
[17:08:16] <AJaeger> gnome-control-center configuration dialogue. Furthermore, the printer
[17:08:18] <AJaeger> entry in the gnome control center should be replaced entirely by yast,
[17:08:20] <AJaeger> or at least the "add printer" menu entry should open "yast printer
[17:08:22] <AJaeger> module".
[17:08:26] <AJaeger> Answer: It's interesting that GNOME is reeinventing the wheel ;-).
[17:08:28] <AJaeger> There are different teams coming from different ends at different
[17:08:30] <AJaeger> times that try to solve issues. We have no great solution for this
[17:08:32] <AJaeger> yet, this needs many more discussions.
[17:08:47] <AJaeger> That's something we should discuss together with JP and other GNOME developers. Our GNOME team is aware of this.
[17:09:00] <AJaeger> Question: In the last few releases there were some ridiculous package
[17:09:00] <AJaeger> dependencies. For example if I wanted to use the KNetworkmanager VPN
[17:09:00] <AJaeger> plugin (in combination with vpnc), I need to install an icontheme
[17:09:00] <AJaeger> package which relies on a gnome package, which in turn relies on some
[17:09:00] <AJaeger> other gnome package, which ... Well, this leads to installing nearly a
[17:09:00] <AJaeger> complete gnome on a KDE desktop. It would be great if such issues
[17:09:02] <AJaeger> would be addressed in the future, as it is very confusing on the one
[17:09:04] <AJaeger> hand and on the other hand causing the whole packaging and dependency
[17:09:06] <AJaeger> system to grow unnecessarily complex. Any chances?
[17:09:08] <AJaeger> Answer: We would like to address such issues. In some cases it means
[17:09:10] <AJaeger> that somebody has to write and contribute software to do this. For
[17:09:12] <AJaeger> KNetworkManager this was just done - if there are other areas, I
[17:09:14] <AJaeger> invite everybody to contribute code to solve these issues.
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[17:09:33] <adrianS> AJaeger, I think it would be usefull to send such an amount of text to the list before .....
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[17:09:42] <adrianS> IRC works line by line ususally ;)
[17:10:10] <AJaeger> adrianS: Those were the questions on the web side. How should I handle that better next time? Should I just post a reference to them?
[17:10:23] <black89xj> I'll second that. I feel like I am reading kernel boot output when trying to read the above.
[17:10:23] <AJaeger> My answer is really brief compared to the question ;-)
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[17:10:37] <AJaeger> black89xj: I give you time to read it ;-)
[17:10:46] <adrianS> we should answer them on the web page or via mailing list, IRC is for one to one discussion
[17:10:57] <@henne> guys
[17:11:02] <@henne> can we discuss this later?
[17:11:26] <AJaeger> Let me just add there's a qestion on http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Status_Meeting_2007-03-28 about the handling of artwork.
[17:11:27] <@henne> AJaeger answer the questions how you like until we agreed on how to procedd :)
[17:11:49] jimmac raises his ears
[17:11:51] <AJaeger> Currently that's handled internally. Jimmac is doing the artwork (Hi Jimmac!) and we discuss it.
[17:12:26] <AJaeger> Jimmac has already started with some ideas on the wiki. Jimmac, perhaps you like to give your ideas on how you like us to develop great artwork for 10.3?
[17:12:34] <@henne> i like the proposed idea
[17:12:48] <jimmac> I like how it works out for fedora. phase1 is wild ideas from the community
[17:13:04] <jimmac> and phase 2 is polishing up the best picks form the ideas into the distro
[17:13:32] <@henne> so what do we need to make that fly? :)
[17:13:36] <AJaeger> Should we create an opensuse-artwork (or however it's called) mailing list where you want to discuss this?
[17:13:50] <adrianS> and a home wiki page ...
[17:13:59] <adrianS> where it is stated what is planned for 10.3 or future
[17:14:03] <AJaeger> adrianS: There's a wiki page already...
[17:14:16] <adrianS> for future planning ? I am not aware
[17:14:54] <jimmac> isn't the branding namespace in the wiki good enough?
[17:15:04] <jimmac> http://en.opensuse.org/Branding_Overview
[17:15:15] <AJaeger> That's what I meant ;-)
[17:15:34] <adrianS> well, we need a base that others can continue the work
[17:15:46] <adrianS> means, artwork templates, color schemes and so on
[17:15:47] <@henne> whats http://en.opensuse.org/Artwork then? :)
[17:15:50] <AJaeger> Jimmac, shall we create a mailing list?
[17:15:53] <adrianS> we want to grow the artists ...
[17:15:59] <jimmac> what I'd like to avoid is design by comitee. discussions, ideas, good. Art direction by comittee, not good.
[17:16:09] <adrianS> http://artist.kde.org is a very good example how something can work IMHO
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[17:16:48] <@henne> jimmac: i agree
[17:16:54] <jimmac> adrianS, can you elaborate on that?
[17:17:12] <AJaeger> so, what you mean is: Discussions etc by everybody - and then a small team decides? Or would a small team count as committee as well?
[17:17:13] <jimmac> AJaeger, mailing list is good.
[17:17:19] <AJaeger> henne: Your call ;-)
[17:17:23] <adrianS> jimmac: we need templates and manuals in the end
[17:17:38] <@henne> AI henne: create opensuse-artwork mailinglist
[17:17:42] <AJaeger> Henne and Jimmac, I suggest that you talk about the mailing list. So, first action item for today: Henne to create mailing list ;-)
[17:17:51] <AJaeger> henne is too fast for me :-)
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[17:18:11] <jimmac> eek!
[17:18:12] <@henne> argh
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[17:18:33] <@henne> netsplit: this meeting is on hold 8)
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[17:19:52] <@henne> adrianS: kick michl
[17:20:02] <adrianS> henne: I will need to get some food today ...
[17:20:25] <@henne> ?
[17:20:29] <@henne> anyway
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[17:20:44] <@henne> jimmac: do you need anything else than a mailinglist and the wiki page?
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[17:20:57] <AJaeger> I'm back again...
[17:21:01] <jimmac> henne, actually I might
[17:21:03] <AJaeger> Sorry, don't know what happened :-(
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[17:21:16] <@henne> jimmac: like? :)
[17:21:24] <jimmac> historically I've kept all the branding elements in the innerforge svn
[17:21:33] <jimmac> things that are the 'source' artwork
[17:21:53] <jimmac> I think it might be better to move opensuse stuff to svn.suse.de
[17:21:57] <adrianS> I think the topic of artwork in openSUSE is more than branding
[17:22:09] <adrianS> actually we should seperate stuff, where Novell has trademark rights
[17:22:19] <adrianS> or make it obvious at least, if this is the case
[17:22:26] <@henne> oh well..
[17:22:32] <@henne> i would propose the following
[17:22:43] <@henne> i create opensuse-artwork and announce it
[17:22:49] <@henne> then we discuss there what to do
[17:22:51] <@henne> ok?
[17:22:52] <adrianS> I agree
[17:22:58] <jimmac> fair enough
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[17:23:23] <@henne> okay
[17:23:30] <@henne> anything else regarding the distribution?
[17:23:42] <AJaeger> any questions?
[17:23:51] <black89xj> open for gripes/comments?
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[17:24:11] <AJaeger> Yes - regarding the distro ;-)
[17:24:16] <AJaeger> black89xj: Go ahead!
[17:24:29] <black89xj> 1) package management
[17:24:48] <black89xj> IMHO, as a longtime user, its needs to be cleaned up.
[17:25:02] <cb400f> black89xj: did you see AJs and Duncans fosdem vids?
[17:25:07] <adrianS> speed improvements are WIP, like a binary cache ...
[17:25:08] <black89xj> too many "systems" to the user
[17:25:17] <black89xj> I read a little on the blog
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[17:25:24] <adrianS> you speak about YaST icons in control center ?
[17:25:24] <cb400f> black89xj: zmd is not installed by default on 10.3
[17:25:26] <black89xj> I'm aware its being addressed
[17:25:30] <AJaeger> black89xj: Which systems do you mean? We'Re consolidating again ? ;-)
[17:25:39] <black89xj> Yast specifically
[17:25:55] <black89xj> Takes way_too_long to refresh sources
[17:26:17] <@henne> like adrianS said. its already worked on
[17:26:17] <black89xj> it works, but the common "joe user" would get frustrated with it
[17:26:18] <AJaeger> Yes, everybody agrees - and work is going on to speed up.
[17:26:22] <black89xj> good
[17:26:28] <apokryphos> ah, mixed up the time of the meeting. Turns out I can turn up ;)
[17:26:29] <black89xj> 2) Ubuntu 8-p
[17:26:39] <@henne> ubuntu what?
[17:26:54] <black89xj> I've been trying out feisty fawn beta release, its slick
[17:27:08] <black89xj> this is the new target to shoot at
[17:27:13] <black89xj> simplicity
[17:27:23] <apokryphos> black89xj: it's still really lacking in major areas
[17:27:24] <black89xj> esp package management
[17:27:32] <black89xj> I'nm aware its not perfect
[17:27:40] <apokryphos> black89xj: their front-end is getting better, but the backend is just as bad as ever.
[17:27:44] <black89xj> But the joe user doesnt see it that way
[17:27:51] <@henne> of course. its based on debian
[17:27:58] <@henne> well
[17:28:07] <black89xj> just a comment there
[17:28:11] <@henne> do you have any specific points?
[17:28:21] <black89xj> as above
[17:28:30] <black89xj> esp package management, click, click, done
[17:28:34] <black89xj> esp updates
[17:28:37] <black89xj> fast simple
[17:28:38] <AJaeger> Yes, simplicity is something we work on for ages. YaST is one answer to that ...
[17:29:02] <@henne> peepz. this is a status meeting
[17:29:06] <black89xj> agreed, yast works well
[17:29:06] <apokryphos> black89xj: 10.1 -> 10.2 upgrades were pretty smooth. We just don't think it's the greatest achievement in the world to get that right, unlike Ubuntu.
[17:29:08] <AJaeger> black89xj: Let's see what we can do with package management...
[17:29:10] <@henne> not a general feedback round
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[17:29:32] <black89xj> ok, just an opinion from a user here
[17:29:43] <@henne> which is perfectly fine
[17:29:47] <@henne> just the wrong forum :)
[17:29:50] <davey> ahja
[17:29:50] <black89xj> heh
[17:30:00] <davey> (sorry)
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[17:30:25] <@henne> we are discussing things that happen or have to be planed
[17:30:31] <@henne> specific things
[17:30:44] <black89xj> I'd just rather have people look at opensuse as THE distro instead of Ubuntu is all you hear about in my user groups, etc
[17:30:49] <@henne> for general discussions, feedback, steering we have the mailinglists
[17:30:55] <@henne> sorry to interrupt like this
[17:31:07] <black89xj> I'm done 8-)
[17:31:27] <AJaeger> Anybody else? Or should we move on?
[17:31:27] cb400f doesn't wish SUSE to become "Linux for hobbits"
[17:31:29] <@henne> okay. anything else specific regarding the distribution?
[17:31:47] <dmiller> I've got a question...
[17:31:57] <@henne> shoot :)
[17:32:11] <dmiller> KDE 4 in 10.3 -- whats the best way to handle it?
[17:32:20] <dmiller> an addon cd?
[17:32:29] <@henne> we are not even sure if it will make it...
[17:32:31] <@henne> Beineri?
[17:32:36] <GlaDiaC> build service?
[17:32:40] Beineri hopes it will make it :-)
[17:32:42] <@henne> any news from that front?
[17:33:00] <cb400f> there's a roadmap now
[17:33:09] <AJaeger> It depends on the quality. We might even add it by default if it's stable enough. For now we try to have KDE3 and 4 working besides each other...
[17:33:18] <cb400f> what are the criteria for "making it"
[17:33:23] adrianS thinks the best things is to have it online, because it is not final and people will have something newer soon ...
[17:33:29] <Beineri> there has been no decision yet (how could be at that point) whether to use an add-cd, to make it default (on normal dvd) etc.
[17:33:49] <@henne> do you have an ETA on that decision?
[17:34:00] <jimmac> kde4 might have implications on artwork...
[17:34:05] <Beineri> before openSUSE goes Beta?
[17:34:14] <@henne> heh okay
[17:34:16] <adrianS> jimmac: definitive ...
[17:34:25] <@henne> dmiller: does that answer your question?
[17:34:48] <@henne> (that there is no answer yet...)
[17:35:21] <@henne> hmkay
[17:35:24] <@henne> next topic?
[17:35:27] <Beineri> independent of add-on cd or main media, we want to have an easy way (new add-on or online update) to update it to final KDE 4.0 when released
[17:35:28] <dmiller> i guess, whats the artwork inplications though? things like the icon naming specs
[17:36:18] <Beineri> dmiller: how so? kde 4 will use new one (icon theme, or easily switch to Tango), kde 3 packages old one
[17:36:26] <adrianS> but also the look, because the look of the desktop should be consistant
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[17:37:15] adrianS is super hungry after no food at all today and awaits impatient the next point
[17:37:27] <@henne> okay next topic then
[17:37:34] <@henne> Second Topic: Status Communication
[17:37:42] <jimmac> what I meant was mainly Yast. Oxygen would probably make yast look out of place and I could finally get my leg in the door :)
[17:37:59] <jimmac> yast in crystal that is
[17:38:30] <@henne> as localhorst is not there today we have nothing on the wiki
[17:38:46] <adrianS> we could mention that YaST / zypp mailing lists are public now
[17:38:57] <@henne> and i dont know if everybody saw that we moved yast/zypp/limal related mailinglists to lists.opensuse.org
[17:38:59] <adrianS> as part of the process to open up the YaST development
[17:39:00] <@henne> http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2007-03/msg00007.html
[17:39:14] <@henne> right
[17:39:17] <@henne> next tolpic?
[17:39:24] <adrianS> please :)
[17:39:25] <apokryphos> I'm also speaking with Frank atm on trying to organise a wiki meeting
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[17:39:31] <Beineri> please add such announcement also to http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_News :-)
[17:39:37] <adrianS> apokryphos: IRC wiki meeting, right ?
[17:39:42] <AJaeger> apokryphos: And announce it on opensuse-announce ;-)
[17:39:46] <apokryphos> hopefully that will be announced some time soon; mainly to do with a big wiki cleanup
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[17:39:59] <apokryphos> adrianS: AJaeger: yup
[17:40:08] <@henne> okay
[17:40:23] <@henne> Third Topic: Status Buildservice
[17:40:29] <@henne> adrianS?
[17:40:33] <adrianS> we deployed new worker images
[17:40:45] <adrianS> some problems are gone, we still stick with one XEN issue
[17:41:00] <adrianS> David and Andreas worked hard on statistics
[17:41:16] <adrianS> so we have now the first time really hard facts what is used at all
[17:41:34] <adrianS> everybody can see what is downloaded how oftern for example
[17:41:54] <adrianS> Another thing is that we will upgrade our server with more electrical power for more build hosts
[17:42:16] <adrianS> since it looks good that we will increase the power of the build server soon :)
[17:42:16] <davey> With the next deploy, download counters can be filtered
[17:42:47] <adrianS> so, that's it for now, I guess
[17:43:01] <adrianS> ah, Beineri created a KDE 4 demo CD with kiwi :)
[17:43:13] <apokryphos> and it works really nicely 8)
[17:43:20] <adrianS> any questions regarding build service ?
[17:43:20] Beineri notes that there a missing links from project/show statistics to projects/view project view and vice versa
[17:43:21] <apokryphos> in its own broken way...
[17:43:28] <apokryphos> adrianS: since the stats are publically available, could there be a link on b.o.o (or s.o.o) that links to them?
[17:43:32] <@henne> the update will happen on friday morning (CEST)
[17:43:40] <@henne> so expect some problems for a short time
[17:43:59] <adrianS> apokryphos: hm, I think it make more sense to have them part of the end user interface on software.o.o
[17:44:17] <apokryphos> sure
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[17:44:38] <@henne> okay any other questions regarding the BS?
[17:44:47] <Beineri> uhm, projects/view is the statistics and project/show the project view :-)
[17:45:06] <adrianS> go on ...
[17:45:18] <@henne> 4. Topic: Status Events
[17:45:20] <@henne> michl?
[17:45:38] <michl19> planning to attend LinuxTag, end of May in Berlin
[17:45:51] <michl19> with a booth and a openSUSE day (conference)
[17:46:12] <michl19> that's it
[17:46:31] <@henne> nothing new on the other events?
[17:46:35] <@henne> oscon?
[17:46:48] <michl19> afaik nothing new
[17:46:53] <@henne> okay
[17:46:58] <cthiel> henne: we submitted a paper but didn't get any feedback (yet).
[17:47:07] <@henne> i see
[17:47:12] <@henne> questions regarding events?
[17:47:29] <@henne> okay
[17:47:29] <cthiel> maybe we should ask if we are missing any important events? :)
[17:47:36] <black89xj> LinuxFest Northwest
[17:47:42] <cb400f> hehe
[17:47:47] <black89xj> Bellingham, Washington end of April
[17:47:52] <michl19> will be attended through Ted Heager
[17:47:58] <aka_druid_> woo hoo
[17:48:02] <black89xj> Cool the Monkey Man!
[17:48:04] <@henne> the ted effect!
[17:48:16] <cb400f> michl19: thaeger told us on irc yesterday he has nothing to do with openSUSE
[17:48:26] <michl19> cool
[17:48:55] <adrianS> cb400f: marketing questions should go to Sabine Soellheim
[17:48:56] <@henne> okay that leaves us with one topic. channel Q&A. any general questions in here?
[17:49:14] <cb400f> comments on gpl3 draft3?
[17:49:25] <cb400f> .. or some eta on them
[17:49:26] <@henne> from whom?
[17:49:30] <cb400f> official ones
[17:49:37] <cb400f> .. or semi-official..
[17:49:41] <AJaeger> cb400f: If you have any specific questions, I'll try to answer them.
[17:49:43] <adrianS> cb400f: it is just 2 hourse old, not even red completly by anyone ;)
[17:49:46] <@henne> they come when they come :)
[17:49:59] dannyft [n=dannyft@3e6b1720.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #opensuse-project
[17:50:30] <@henne> anything else?
[17:50:31] <bill-barriere> wait what ?
[17:50:34] <cb400f> haven't read it myself yet.. just curious how soon we could expect some semi-official response
[17:50:45] <bill-barriere> you arent sending Ted to represent openSUSE ?!
[17:50:55] <AJaeger> cb400f: What kind of semi-official response do you want?
[17:50:56] <cb400f> .. cuz of course we won't get fully official response to a draft
[17:51:05] <bill-barriere> no way ... keep the Novell fanboy to novell please
[17:51:11] <cb400f> will it affect us..
[17:51:28] <adrianS> cb400f: not from what I can see so far ...
[17:51:33] <@henne> well
[17:51:50] <adrianS> cb400f: I mean, it will affect everybody, since there are new rules inside
[17:51:55] <@henne> you cant expect us to have a clue 2 hours after its released
[17:52:00] <@henne> so sit and wait :)
[17:52:11] <adrianS> cb400f: but I am not aware of anything what would be specific to openSUSE
[17:52:18] <cb400f> henne: just letting you know that I'm waiting
[17:52:28] henne pours cb400f a tea
[17:52:42] <@henne> any other general question?
[17:52:47] <adrianS> cb400f: I think it works the other way around, you should make some specific question on opensuse-project for example
[17:52:55] <adrianS> just waiting does not move anything ....
[17:53:16] <cb400f> adrianS: ok, I prolly will when I've looked at it
[17:53:53] <AJaeger> cb400f: I looked briefly over it and it's getting really large and I didn't understand everything ;-)
[17:53:56] <adrianS> aj and me will try to answer them if we can or we may need to ask back ...
[17:54:05] <@henne> okay
[17:54:07] <@henne> So that was it. If you have more, dont hesitate to bring it up on the appropriate mailinglist.
[17:54:10] <@henne> Thank you all for participating. Good night and good luck!