Meetings/Status Meeting 2006-11-08/transcript

From openSUSE

Start of the meeting

18:01 @<henne> Welcome to the openSUSE Status Meeting!
18:01 @<henne> This meeting is meant to discuss the latest developments in and around openSUSE.
18:01 @<henne> The topics of this meeting are:
18:01 @<henne> * status 10.2
18:01 @<henne> * status wiki
18:02 @<henne> * status build service
18:02 @<henne> * the novell/microsoft deal
18:02 @<henne> * q/a session
18:02 @<henne> lets go :)
18:02 @<henne> AJaeger: are you ready?
18:02 <AJaeger> Never ;-)
18:03 <AJaeger> Ok, I'll start!

Status 10.2

18:03 <AJaeger> openSUSE 10.2 Beta1 looked already quite fine but had some rough edges. I think that most of them have been fixed in the last two weeks and currently we're fighting to get Beta2 out of the door.
18:04 <AJaeger> We just found a few blocker bugs (no grub config written at all) that needs fixing, so we might be a day late - I'm not sure yet but I will not promise that beta2 will be out tomorrow...
18:04 <AJaeger> We have added all the translations received so it should be nearly completely translated.
18:05 <AJaeger> What kind of questions do you have? Any feedback on 10.2?
18:05 <cb400f> is localization in place for b2?
18:06 <AJaeger> cb400f: Yes, 95 % of the files submitted are in. We're just adding some more. A few translation files were too late and did not make it - but most did.
18:06 <AJaeger> Especially YaST is completly translated as of 10am UTC.
18:06 <Tsuroerusu> Ajaeger: How is the PPC version of 10.2 doing on the bootloader issues? I tried installing beta1 on my Mac mini, and no matter what I did, I could not get the bootloader to install.
18:06 <AJaeger> Tsuroerusu: There's still an open bug for this issue, I think it's not fixed yet. ;-(
18:07 <Tsuroerusu> Ajaeger: Darn, is that considered a blocker bug?
18:08 <AJaeger> Tsuroerusu: A critical one definitely. We will not hold up shipment for this but we do our best to get it.
18:08 <AJaeger> Tsuroerusu: Please check whether #210535 is the bug you mean - if not, please file a new one as CRITICAL.
18:09 @<henne> any more questions?
18:09 <Tsuroerusu> Ajaeger: OK, here's another one for you, if Sun opens up Java before 10.2 is released, will there be Java packages in the main repo or in the non-oss repo?
18:10 <AJaeger> Tsuroerusu: It all depends when this happens and what exactly the license is. Java contains cryptographic code and therefore we might not be able to add it in time.
18:10 <Tsuroerusu> Ajaeger: I saw something today which indicated they are going to use the GPL.
18:11 <Tsuroerusu> Ajaeger: And if that's not the case, I think you can bet on CDDL.
18:11 <AJaeger> Tsuroerusu: Let's see - and otherwise we can discuss adding it via online-update. I don't like to promise anything before having seen all details.
18:11 <aka_druid_> Tsuroerusu: well, does this really change anythin? Its in the mirrors, its in addon cd...
18:12 <Tsuroerusu> aka_druid: I'm a bit of a free software guy so I much rather have Java be GPL than under a restrictive license.
18:12 @<henne> anyway
18:12 <Tsuroerusu> Ajaeger: Fair enough, should be interesting to see what happens.
18:12 @<henne> this question was answered
18:12 @<henne> any other questions regard 10.2 development?
18:13 <AJaeger> ok, then I continue getting beta2 out of the door ;-)
18:13 <cb400f> I'm a bit worried about the (k)powersave issues
18:13 <cb400f> any comments? .. Is gnome affected too?
18:13 <AJaeger> cb400f: So am I - we have a new kpowersave in Beta2.
18:14 <cb400f> ok, we'll see
18:14 <AJaeger> GNOME should be working - at least we did not get a single bugreport and I know that my colleagues in the desktop team tested beta1 on their machines.
18:14 @<henne> ok. next topic?
18:14 <cboltz> will the factory tree be frozen at beta2 for some days?
18:14 <AJaeger> For GNOME the change was rather trivial, for KDE it was a complete change of philisophy regarding powersave.
18:14 <AJaeger> cboltz: I will try if I sync it out in time...
18:15 <cboltz> OK. (Please announce it on the mailinglist when done.)
18:15 <metav0id> will zmd/zen-tools be installed within kde pattern? or only zypper and opensuseupdater?
18:15 <AJaeger> cboltz: ok.
18:16 <AJaeger> There is a ZENworks pattern that is installed by default. You can deselect it and use the other package management pattern if you prefer.
18:16 <cb400f> AJaeger: does the zenwork pattern install zen-updater or opensuse-updater for KDE users?
18:16 <AJaeger> cb400f: It installs zen-updater.
18:16 <metav0id> AJaeger: what is "the other pattern"?
18:17 <AJaeger> I don't remember how I called it, something like "Local package management". It contains zypper and opensuse-updater.
18:17 <adrianO> can we move on and you can figure out details via mail ? I think we run out of time for other questions otherwise ...
18:17 <AJaeger> Yes, let's ask on the opensuse-factory list.
18:18 <cb400f> .. and the description fittingly includes the work "lightweight"
18:18 @<henne> ok so next topic?
18:19 <adrianO> henne: go on
18:19 @<henne> alright

Status wiki

18:19 @<henne> status wiki
18:19 @<henne> notlocalhorst go ahead
18:19 <notlocalhorst> the new frontpage design and splash is online for all wikis, thanks to Frank and all the people who worked on that! We are now accepting new wikis again.
18:19 <notlocalhorst> thats all ... questions?
18:20 @<henne> okay....
18:20 <cb400f> I have a comment, it's very nice
18:20 @<henne> next topic?
18:20 <darix> one nice thing i would like to mention: susept.com(iirc) wanted to setup their own wiki at first place, but now they decided to use pt.opensuse.org instead. :)
18:20 <darix> nice move actually.
18:20 <cboltz> will there be working redirects / language selection for http://www.opensuse.org/Download (or any other page)?
18:20 <cboltz> I guess there are several www.opensuse.org/... links out there which are currently "404"
18:21 <darix> cboltz: i will try to get a redirect to en.o.o in place
18:21 <cboltz> that's not really what I mean
18:21 <darix> cboltz: www.o.o was never meant to work actually ...
18:21 <darix> cboltz: _no_ automatic language selection
18:21 <darix> cboltz: that topic was discussed on the ml to death.
18:21 <cboltz> it should redirect to the language selector and allow the user to choose the language
18:21 <darix> i will just restore the mapping to en.o.o as it was before.
18:22 <darix> so we fix the 404.
18:22 <darix> *looks at henne*
18:22 @<henne> anything else on the wiki?
18:22 <cboltz> what about the "preferred language cookie" for www.opensuse.org (was part of the long discussion on the ML ;-)
18:23 <cboltz> any chance to implement this?
18:23 <darix> cboltz: i dont think so.
18:24 @<henne> ok next topic

Status build service

18:24 @<henne> status build service
18:24 @<henne> adrianO?
18:25 <adrianO> Lots of vacation was used from people in the last weeks
18:25 <mc83|away> hey guys, i got here a little late. did u already talk about the microsoft/novell deal?
18:25 @<henne> mc83|away: no
18:25 * mc83|away is away, auto-away after 20 minutes (12m 23s ago)
18:25 <adrianO> however, good thing is that Andreas and darix did take care to stabelise the build hosts
18:25 <adrianO> so we do build relative stable atm
18:25 <adrianO> darix, abauer any new developments otherwise in the last weeks ?
18:26 <darix> adrianO: only many small fixes. :)
18:26 <darix> nothing bigger changed.
18:26 <darix> atm we run with 31 build hosts.
18:26 <adrianO> okay, and ftp1.opensuse.org download server got repaired again for downloading packages
18:27 <adrianO> I think that is it
18:27 <darix> and we already have ca. 2061 packages
18:27 <darix> in the Buildservice :)
18:27 <metav0id> when will the build service become public?
18:27 <adrianO> sources, but more rpm packages, right ?
18:27 <adrianO> metav0id: as said the last time, after we finished implementing quotas and ACLs and we do have more build power
18:27 <adrianO> we hope to have it early next year
18:28 <darix> adrianO: packages as the things you add in the buildservice
18:28 <darix> rpm most likely much more. :)
18:28 <darix> and we need roughly 26h to rebuild all of them against factory
18:28 <adrianO> okay, any further questions ?
18:28 <adrianO> regarding build service
18:28 * Beineri notes that KDE:KDE3 is finally synced out again (and KDE:KDE4 has now all modules)...
18:29 @<henne> any questions regarding the buildservice?
18:29 <cboltz> when will the unneeded builds be avoided?
18:29 <cboltz> (as in: two changes and still waiting for the build)
18:29 <darix> cboltz: when the bug is fixed. :)
18:29 <cboltz> good answer ;-)
18:29 <darix> cboltz: the part on queue optimisation is mls. who is still on vacation
18:29 <adrianO> there are two issues
18:30 <adrianO> DuDE: when do you think the atomar commit in osc is implemented ?
18:30 <darix> cboltz: and getting atomar commits into the backend is heavily discussed.
18:30 <darix> adrianO: it is an api issue aswell.
18:30 <darix> we discussed 1h before the meeting with abauer.
18:30 <DuDE> there are some conceptual changes for osc queuing up on my todo list, it is one of them
18:31 @<henne> any more questions?
18:31 <darix> cboltz: you see it is not as trivial as it might sound. :)
18:31 <DuDE> I won't do a quick fix due to the conceptual changes which I want to do first. I may not fix in the next two weeks, therefore
18:32 <cboltz> yes, seems so ;-)
18:32 <DuDE> it is not a difficult change but it makes sense to not add a hack

Status Mailinglists

18:32 @<henne> okay. i have another topic i would like to do now
18:32 @<henne> * status mailinglists
18:33 @<henne> ok?
18:33 <darix> ok
18:33 <cb400f> there are some questions on the wiki btw.
18:33 <darix> cb400f: regarding the buildservice?
18:33 @<henne> lists.suse.com (the old mailinglist server) is dying on us
18:33 <cb400f> darix: 10.2 actually.. http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Status_Meeting_2006-11-08
18:34 <darix> cb400f: hmm later for the Q/A than.
18:34 @<henne> we will do them in the Q/A section as always :)
18:34 * cb400f is confused by two Q&A sections..
18:35 <cb400f> henne: sorry for the interruption, go ahead
18:35 @<henne> so again. the old list server is dying. the new one is in place. i will migrate the lists on friday and by poular demand on the old lists we will not have opensuse-users lists
18:36 @<henne> so support/user stuff will happen on opensuse in english or on opensuse-<lang> in that language
18:36 <adrianO> but keep the old list names like suse-linux ?
18:36 <aka_druid_> henne: and then sle subscribers will wake up on saturday as opensuse@opensuse.org subscribers, right?
18:36 @<henne> aka_druid_: yes
18:36 <aka_druid_> adrianO: there you go heh
18:36 @<henne> adrianO: the old list addresses will continue to work but are depreceated
18:37 @<henne> mails will always originate from the new address
18:37 <cboltz> well, at least the separation of -project will (hopefully) work then because opensuse@ will be very high-traffic ;-)
18:37 <adrianO> henne: okay
18:37 @<henne> any more questions?
18:37 @<henne> neat :)
18:37 <cboltz> I was a bit surprised that the suse-linux-e users asked for opensuse-en instead of opensuse...
18:37 <cboltz> did this opinion change?
18:38 <darix> will we really have the opensuse-en ml?
18:38 <aka_druid_> cboltz: henne jsut said that sle > [opensuse]
18:38 @<henne> so lets start the big thang :)
18:38 @<henne> next topic?
18:39 <adrianO> go on
18:39 <darix> hmm kurt seems on his way.

The Novell/ Microsoft deal

18:39 @<henne> the novell/microsoft deal
18:39 <aka_druid_> in here? or in #suse?
18:39 @<henne> adrianO?
18:39 @<henne> not in #suse
18:40 <adrianO> well, I think almost everyting is said in the public, but there are still questions of course
18:40 <adrianO> or can you describe any feelings about that ? good/bad ?
18:40 <notlocalhorst> here he is
18:40 <aka_druid_> as we were talking about, it would be neat to ahve a dat previously announced
18:40 <adrianO> We do have here Kurt and Nat for more official answers luckily :)
18:41 <aka_druid_> or have it again in another date, so we could tell people that its goin to happen
18:41 <garloff_> sorry, seems like i was too stupid to do /disconnect before connecting here
18:41 <aka_druid_> see, today here there are almost only people who are very aware of the deal, and the topics
18:41 <darix> welcome kurt
18:41 <adrianO> aka_druid_: you are of course free to ask also questions about it in a later meeting
18:41 <aka_druid_> adrianO: of course. But did you see my point?
18:41 <adrianO> we will not always be able to answer any immediatly, but we can find out
18:42 <adrianO> so, do you think almost all important questions are answered ?
18:42 <aka_druid_> adrianO: Im aware. But the slahdot crowd or the felals from #ubuntu who definitely *need* to hear it dont even know this is happening here right now
18:42 <garloff_> Should not stop us from sharing infomration, right?
18:42 <darix> aka_druid_: there will be more info on the net. dont worry.
18:43 <adrianO> aka_druid_: right, therefore we have the pages on novell.com and we can also provide another version on opensuse.org, if needed
18:43 <aka_druid_> indeed, we could log this anyway
18:43 <darix> aka_druid_: this irc meeting would not be the final word.
18:43 <darix> aka_druid_: it is logged. as any other meeting.
18:44 <bgerber> On with the questions
18:44 <AJaeger> Guys, let's not discuss about whether enough folks are here. If there is a need for another meeting next week, I'm sure we can arrange something. But if all of you are not interested in discussing it now then I'm confused ;-)
18:44 <sPiN> will there be a new Q added to faq to cover the $348M currently there is mention of money changing hands, but people have asked about that a lot
18:44 <adrianO> I think we all did a great a job on the lists meanwhile ;)
18:44 <Nat_> If you guys haven't seen the FAQ that was posted last night, you should check it out now: http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq_opensource.html
18:45 <adrianO> AJ announced it on the opensuse lists as well
18:45 <adrianO> so, is there still anyone with strong feelings against it ?
18:46 <bgerber> I posted my concerns on the project list
18:46 <sPiN> adrianO, none of those people know this is going on, they just come to #suse to troll about it
18:46 <Nat_> spin: We can add a Q to the FAQ about that. There is also a lot of detail about the financials in the press release that was released yesterday: http://www.novell.com/news/press/item.jsp?id=1199
18:46 <sPiN> thanks nat, had not looked at that link till now
18:46 <Tsuroerusu> adrianO: If I understand it correctly, it seems like Novell is avoiding a GPL violation by a "milimeter" as Eben Moglen describes it.
18:46 <darix> sPiN: you can invite them here now.
18:46 <cb400f> I'm against it for the reasons stated here: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2006-11/msg00024.html .. but I wouldn't say strong feelings
18:47 <bgerber> I wanted to know if my understanding of the payments was correct.
18:47 <adrianO> Tsuroerusu: well, no, there is no way to avoid GPL violation by that contract
18:48 <adrianO> Tsuroerusu: and we really do not plan to violate the GPL, as mentioned on the lists
18:48 <bgerber> That is they are for Linux on windows via virtual ...
18:48 <Tsuroerusu> adrianO: Well, if Novell had done a patent cross-licensing, would that be violating the GPL?
18:49 <garloff_> Tsuroerusu: Your assumption is that we ship code that is protected by valid patents -- otherwise there can't be a GPL violation, right?
18:49 <sPiN> darix, i dont exactly associate with these people, as aka_druid_ said, they are mostly from #ubuntu. Their concerns are covered by the FAQ though.. the only one not represented is: 'this is bad because I hate Microsoft so much it burns when i pee'
18:49 <adrianO> Tsuroerusu: as mentioned before, the GPL would be violated anyway, because a patent causes a limitation
18:49 <Nat_> bgerber: there are a few payments. I don't remember the exact details, but you can look them up in the press release from yesterday or the "8k" form that Novell filed with the SEC in the US. If I recall correctly about $240million is in coupons that Microsoft bought of SLES, and then $108million from MSFT to Novell is the net on all the other IP-related payments
18:49 <adrianO> but that was caused by the author of that source
18:49 <garloff_> http://biz.yahoo.com/e/061107/novl8-k.html
18:49 <adrianO> it has nothing to do with the contract
18:50 <darix> hmm
18:50 <Tsuroerusu> garloff_: As far as I know Microsoft has a patent that would force removal of "FAT with long file names" support from the kernel. I heard a geek-patent-lawyer speak about it, and he said that it should be a valid patent.
18:50 <darix> can we do it more sorted? one question after another?
18:50 <cb400f> Nat_: why doesn't Novell feel stupid paying for a covenant and at the same time stating that no patents are infringed?
18:50 <aka_druid_> Nat_: whats is an IP-related payment?
18:50 <garloff_> Tsuroerusu: If this is found to be valid, we'll have to work around just as everyone else in the community
18:50 <aka_druid_> as the faw says ist not a covenant or some sort of contract
18:51 <aka_druid_> the faq*, sorry
18:51 <Nat_> Well I feel stupid most days
18:51 <_Marcus_> we provide a warm und fuzzy feeling for our customers with this.
18:51 <Nat_> Earlier in this channel people were talking about Sun putting Java under the GPL, and Sun have a history of distributing Linux. Sun and Microsoft signed an _actual_ patent cross-license agreement in 2004.
18:51 <mc83|away> guys, i'm very new to linux, but i read, on a blog, a couple days ago, something i though very insightful: the author said he hopes you will try to persuade microsoft to adopt open-source standards, not do the other way around, and adopt their standards
18:52 <garloff_> mc83: Very much agree
18:52 <Nat_> Me too
18:53 <Nat_> aka: The FAQ states that the payments are for the covenants from Microsoft and Novell to each other's customers.
18:53 * Grommet still wouldn't use openvista
18:53 <bgerber> I would like to see access for DVD's/players made available directly with out having to go to packman or other sites to do it.
18:53 <bgerber> Could the deal maybe assist in this area?
18:53 <AJaeger> bgerber: We all would like - but Microsoft is not the only patent holder.
18:53 <Nat_> bgerber: Me too. Unfortunately the licenses for MPEG-2 and Dolby are expensive. There is no flat-fee license available for MPEG-2 decoding. So it's hard to do that.
18:53 <sPiN> dont think so bgerber, ms doesnt own patent on that
18:53 <adrianO> bgerber: me too :) but there is not much hope and this deal will most likely not help there
18:54 <Nat_> bgerber: But as everyone's saying that has nothing to do with Microsoft :-)
18:54 <adrianO> and even with a MPEG-2 decoding you have also further problems ...
18:54 <adrianO> but this contract will help there only very little (if at all)
18:54 <Nat_> Right. I don't think it will help at all.
18:55 <cb400f> Nat_, garloff_ : is novell working on a political level, with partners perhaps, to improve the patent situation?
18:55 <jervine> what about other MS techs? like their media player codecs, and Exchange MAPI connectivity for Evolution?
18:55 <sPiN> wrt samba support... does this mean Jeremy get actual help from MS and will not have to spend his days reverse engineering the protocol?
18:55 <cb400f> (assuming you agree patents are a problem)
18:55 <Nat_> cb: Well we are founding members of the Open Invention Network, which is a patent pool used to defend most of the core component sof Linux from patent litigation
18:55 <Nat_> cb: If you look at the list of patents on the OIN web page (http://www.openinventionnetwork.com/pat_owned.php), Novell contributed those to OIN
18:55 <Nat_> and a large amount of money
18:56 <garloff_> garloff_: Software patents are a fact of life in the US -- I hope it's going to change, but we probably have no big lever there. In Europe there's much more hope to not allow SW patents to rule our world.
18:56 <Nat_> So that's one of the things we've been doing to try to defuse the patent situation
18:56 <darix> jervine: mediaplayer codecs have also licensed patents from other people.
18:56 <bgerber> yes and I am very grateful to Novell for its OIN support
18:57 <Tsuroerusu> Nat_: Will Novell be using this "patent covenant" as a compeditive advantage over Red Hat? Personally I think using patents as a compeditive advantage is a very dirty trick, but that's because I hate software patents with a passion.
18:57 <Nat_> jervine: We have a license for the the windows media player codecs from Real Networks, so once they've finished implemented decoders for WMV and WMA we'll be able to ship those in SUSE.
18:57 <darix> we can all just hope that the situation in europe doesnt change to the bad side.
18:57 <garloff_> Tsuroerusu: It's against people that make customers feel unsafe by spreading FUD on the legal situation of linux
18:57 <Nat_> jervine: Exchange/MAPI connectivity over DCE-RPC is a tough nut. Even if we had all the documentation and the rights on that, I'm not sure it'd be worth it
18:57 <AJaeger> Nat_: You mean shipping with openSUSE? or with SUSE Linux Enterprise desktop? Or with both ;-) ?
18:58 <Beineri> Nat_: SUSE Enterprise, not openSUSE - right?
18:58 <Nat_> AJaeger: Well I'm personally open to doing it with both :-).
18:58 <darix> *prints that out* (:
18:58 <Nat_> darix: I agree, I hope the european software patent situation doesn't get as bad as the US situation.
18:58 <Nix> :-)
18:59 <AJaeger> Nat_; I thought so, so we agree.
18:59 <Tsuroerusu> Nat_: So does Real pay a flat fee or something for WMA/WMV? And will these be native Linux decoders or will it just be some stupid Microsoft DirectShow DLLs?
18:59 <Nat_> The US patent situation is making it hard to compete unless you own patents. That's why we created OIN -- to protect parties who don't have patents. Red Hat for example has only 2 or 3 patents, total. Novell has hundreds. So in creating OIN, we really effectively created a lot of protection for Red Hat and Debian and our competitors in the distro space.
18:59 <garloff_> Which is a good thing
19:00 <Nat_> If you think we are using patents for a competitive advantage now, please remember that OIN was something we _could have done_ just for Novell, but instead we chose to contribute those incdredibly valuable patents to a common pool
19:00 <Nat_> It's important to stress how valuable those patents are. They cover really fundamental ecommerce methods
19:00 * Nix thanks Novell for doing that..
19:00 <ahanke> Tsuroerusu: These are native codecs, Real got the source code from MS for free and does just the porting work.
19:00 <Nat_> ahanke: That's right
19:00 * judas_iscariote nods
19:00 <Nat_> I don't know about "for free" though
19:00 <Nat_> :-)
19:00 <Tsuroerusu> ahanke: Because they were forced to by a certain lawsuit here in Europe ;)
19:01 <Nat_> Hehe. I think anyone can license the WM* codecs off MSFT's web page.
19:01 <Nat_> They even have prices listed.
19:01 <garloff_> You need to love european jurisdiction :-)
19:01 @<henne> i have a suggestion
19:01 @<henne> Nat_, garloff_ can we repeat this next week?
19:01 <bgerber> It frees us from a lot of things.
19:02 <Nat_> henne: that's fine with me
19:02 @<henne> after we announced it a bit more
19:02 @<henne> then we can do it in a structured way too
19:02 <darix> henne: should we answer the questions from the wiki anyway?
19:02 <adrianS_> the question is, if MS would have an interesst to allow WM? codec support within GPL meanwhile, so they could "free" their patents regarding it ..... (anyway, this is not a topic regarding the contract)
19:02 <Nat_> There are questions on the wiki?
19:02 <garloff_> henne: I'd be late again -- have a conflict at 18:00 CET, but OK apart from that
19:02 <Nat_> Next wednesday I am flying
19:02 <Nat_> But we can do it another day next week, monday or tuesday or friday
19:02 <darix> we could move to tuesday or thursday :)
19:03 <bgerber> How about Tuesday
19:03 <Nat_> Thursday I'm at Linux World in Cologne :-)
19:03 @<henne> okay i take the action item of working some date/time out with you two :)
19:03 <adrianS_> not the official meeting please, but can create another MS only deal meeting ...
19:03 <garloff_> Nat_: So am I -- maybe network works there :-)
19:03 <Nat_> garloff: :-) Good point
19:03 <adrianS_> we should be a bit reliable with the general openSUSE status meeting dates ;)
19:03 <garloff_> Thu is easier though for me as well -- more predictable
19:03 <Nat_> We'll work it out offline. Sounds good.
19:04 @<henne> Action Item henne: work out some date/time with nat/kurt for another Novell/MS deal IRC meeting
19:04 <benJIman> Can you please announce it at least 2 days beforehand
19:04 @<henne> benJIman: thats the point
19:04 <adrianS_> so, anything else regarding Novell/MS or can we move on to general Q/A session ?
19:05 <cboltz> "Novell's customers receive directly from Microsoft a covenant not to sue" caused some discussion about who will protected - only SLE* users or openSUSE users also?
19:05 <cboltz> And there were questions if this is only valid for self-used code (which MS would never see anyway ;-) or if it is also valid if you distribute your work non-commercial.
19:05 <cboltz> Can you clear this up a bit? ;-)
19:05 <Nat_> cboltz: All paying users are definitely covered.
19:06 <Nat_> cboltz: You can read hte covenants themselves on MSFT's web page: http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/default.mspx
19:06 <garloff_> cboltz: For the software they received from Novell
19:06 <AJaeger> Nat_: And if I send cboltz a box product for free for his good contributions to openSUSE?
19:07 <Nat_> ajaeger: that is a good question. I don't know.
19:07 <AJaeger> Nat_: I would assume that I (or Novell) paid for it and just gave it away.
19:07 <cboltz> I vote for "received from Novell" *g*
19:08 <AJaeger> Nat_: But this still leaves open CDs downloaded from the internet, distributed via magazines or at trade shows from NOvell.
19:08 <smb> AJaeger: if Novell, would that then mean we were covered by the covenant? Are the covenants transferrable?
19:09 <adrianS_> not official answer: I heard openSUSE users are protected, if the questioned patent was also part of SLE*
19:09 <smb> (err, s/we/novell/
19:09 <Tsuroerusu> Nat_: If Mr. Matthew Schulik were to take OpenOffice.org from SLED 10 and put into his company's distribution, would his customers be subject to lawsuits from Microsoft?
19:09 <adrianS_> but seriously, do you think MS will sue you when it doesn't for all other SUSE users ?
19:11 <darix> Tsuroerusu: you would get problems due the use of novell trademark items (:
19:11 <Nat_> Hey, sorry, I had to step away for a second. Lots of questions about the covenants here and their exact meaning.
19:11 <darix> Tsuroerusu: see the discussion about this on the opensuse ml
19:12 <Nat_> First thing I'll point out is that you can *read* the actual covenants themselves on MSFT's web page. They are legal documents and you can read them and interpret them.
19:12 <Tsuroerusu> darix: Well, assuming those trademarked names and stuff were removed
19:12 <Nat_> Our first set of community FAQ answers that went up last night dealt with all the non-covenant questions, because we thought those were the most urgent
19:12 <Nat_> And also, frankly, because I think the covenants as they stand today are a good first step, but they could be better, and clearer.
19:12 <Nat_> So we're trying to get Microsoft to improve them, but there's no certainty that that will happen.
19:13 <Nat_> My understanding is that people who get openSUSE for free are covered under the "development, evaluation, testing" clause of the customer covenant
19:13 <Nat_> As long as you're the type of person who updates to the latest packages
19:13 <Nat_> All people who pay Novell are covered
19:13 <Nat_> And the covenants are from Microsoft directly to the users, and cover only use, not distribution, so are not transferable.
19:14 <Nat_> But I'm not a lawyer, and I didn't write the covenants, and I didn't negotiate them either, so I can't say my answers are definitive :-)
19:15 <cboltz> regarding "update to the latest packages" - as in "security updates", "latest stable release" or "Factory"?
19:15 <cboltz> (half a hair anyone? ;-)
19:15 <garloff_> To me MSFTs covenant reads like Novell needs to receive revenue to make the main clause of "Covenant to Customers" applicable. otherwise the "in development ... provided for development, testing or evaluation" clause can apply
19:15 <Nat_> garloff: I think that's right
19:15 <darix> so, who will install beta2 tomorrow? hands up guys.
19:16 <Nat_> cboltz: I agree, that's a fine line. The point is, if you're NOT covered by the covenant, you're in exactly the same position you were in a week ago
19:16 <cb400f> hehe.. so this deal also solidifies that openSUSE is a testing product ;-)
19:16 <aka_druid_> cb400f: a fedora
19:16 <judas_iscariote> cb400f: huh ?
19:16 <sPiN> i plan to throw beta2 on a VM
19:16 <garloff_> cboltz: I like you use openSUSE for testing -- though you should do that for many other reasons IMVHO ;-)
19:16 <darix> cb400f: it just means you might still be as covered/uncovered as you were before.
19:16 <cthiel> cb400f: ... + you can actually buy openSUSE ;)
19:17 <garloff_> sorry, I meant cb400f
19:17 <cboltz> darix: I'll update to beta2 of course (given the Factory tree is ready - I need more packages than on the CDs ;-)
19:17 <Tsuroerusu> cb400f: Technology Preview :P
19:17 <adrianS_> can we either stay on topic or move on ?
19:18 <adrianS_> are there still questions for now regarding MS/Novell ?
19:18 <adrianS_> henne: can we go on please ?
19:18 <Tsuroerusu> Nat_: If I understand the convenant deal correctly, Novell are paying Microsoft X amount of mula, right? So if I bought an openSUSE 10.2 boxed product or SLED 10 for that matter, some of those 60 bucks would eventually be sent to Redmond and be reinvested into spreding FUD about Linux, FreeBSD, MySQL; PHP and the whole community at large, "but wait there's SUSE Linux Enterprise from Novell". Am I correct in assuming this?
19:18 @<henne> adrianS_: sure. but there is still discussion going on :)
19:19 <adrianS_> Tsuroerusu: MS pays money to Novell, not the other way around ...
19:19 <Nat_> Tsuroerusu: Well, the way I understand it, it's a two-way deal. Microsoft is paying us not to sue their customers and we're paying them not to sue ours. In fact, they're paying us over the next five years $108 million more than we're paying them.
19:19 <darix> Tsuroerusu: you read that microsoft is going to implement FastCGI support in IIS7 to improve the php performance
19:20 <Nat_> Tsuroerusu: And we will reinvest that $108 million in writing open source software and making Linux better.
19:20 @<henne> darix: stay on topic
19:20 <judas_iscariote> Tsuroerusu: and I least personanly I don't see PHP developers running away or ranting that Zend made a deal with MS either
19:20 <darix> Tsuroerusu: and that MS will publish all the needed code parts under the php license
19:20 <Nat_> Tsuroerusu: So I think MSFT is actually the loser in this deal.
19:20 <darix> henne: i answered a question. nothing more.
19:20 <Nat_> Okay guys I have to go get some food
19:21 @<henne> okay then lets close it here and continue with the normal Q/A
19:21 <Nat_> If you want to talk to me directly you can mail nat@novell.com or you can talk to the other very capable people here :-)
19:21 <darix> Nat_: have fun and thanks for being here.
19:21 <Nat_> see you!
19:21 <AJaeger> Nat_: Thanks for joining and enjoy lunch!
19:21 <Nat_> Thanks :-) Bye!
19:21 * darix wants evening meal.
19:21 @<henne> we all will have the possibility to ask further questions all the time on the mailinglist
19:21 @<henne> and in the special IRC meeting we will set up next week
19:21 <AJaeger> Let's use opensuse-project for this.
19:21 <garloff_> Nat_: Tiny correction from the SEC filing: NOVL receives 108M$, pays 40M$ if I read correctly
19:21 <garloff_> Still a net win :-)

Q & A

19:22 @<henne> okay NEXT topic
19:22 @<henne> Q/A
19:22 @<henne> there was a question from flo
19:22 <cb400f> isn't it _at least_ 40 mill USD pr. year for five years?
19:22 @<henne> In 10.2, will we have a KDE application for installing and configure XGL/Compiz ? In the same way of the one for GNOME. It should be as easy to switch to compiz on KDE than on GNOME...
19:22 <garloff_> cb400f: no overall
19:23 @<henne> AJaeger: thats for you probably
19:23 <cb400f> ok, that's better
19:23 @<henne> please peepz
19:23 @<henne> we are at the next topic
19:23 * garloff_ asks for forgiveness
19:23 <adrianS_> Beineri: can you answer it ?
19:23 <AJaeger> henne: No, there will not be a KDE application for xgl/compiz :-(
19:23 @<henne> switching you mean.
19:24 @<henne> ok
19:24 <bgerber> Maybe 10.3?
19:24 <darix> AJaeger: but the gnome app does work?
19:24 <adrianS_> I think the question is more about supporting compiz out of the box within KDE
19:24 <AJaeger> darix: The GNOME app should work - and yes, 10.3 should have it.
19:24 <adrianS_> not that you have manually to edit start scripts
19:24 @<henne> yes i understand it that way too
19:24 @<henne> but if you can use the GNOME app and if we will have something in 10.3...
19:25 @<henne> question answered
19:25 <benJIman> There is a KDE window decorator for beryl now, any liklihood of it being put into Novell's version of compiz?
19:25 <Tsuroerusu> benJIman: An actual decorator linked to the Qt toolkit, or just some theme?
19:25 <adrianS_> benJIman: can you try out, if it does work together ?
19:25 <benJIman> adrianS_: works for me
19:25 <Bille> and the system tray and pager will work properly with compiz in 10.2
19:26 <benJIman> Tsuroerusu: Qt I think, it uses the kwin decorations, and has proper right click menu etc
19:26 <sPiN> i have used aquamarine, it is VERY new, and it did cause some crashes for me
19:26 <Tsuroerusu> benJIman: That sounds very interesting, you have a link for it or a screenshot of it?
19:26 <cb400f> for me too
19:26 <sPiN> but a good chunk of functionality was there
19:26 @<henne> please discuss details on opensuse-factory
19:26 <sPiN> ftp://ftp.skynet.be/pub/software.opensuse.org/X11:/XGL/XOrg7_SUSE_Linux_10.1/repodata/repoview/aquamarine-0-061108-3.1.html
19:26 <benJIman> Tsuroerusu: aquamarine is in the xgl build service repository
19:26 @<henne> peepz!
19:27 @<henne> there is still a question from AgBr
19:27 @<henne> What is the status of linux kernel of suse 10.2 nowadays? I am worried about driver for Realtek 8168. I found it only in 2.6.19-rc4 vanilla kernel. When will the kernel be frozen?
19:27 @<henne> AJaeger: also for you i guess
19:27 <AJaeger> henne: We're using 2.6.18.x and will not go to 2.6.19-rc4.
19:27 <darix> AJaeger: and it wont be backported either?
19:27 <garloff_> Someone could build a KMP with the newer driver ...
19:28 <AJaeger> If there's need to backport it, then open a bugreport, please.
19:28 @<henne> alright
19:28 <darix> next?
19:28 <Albertop> hello
19:28 * AJaeger needs to leave now - sorry...
19:28 <adrianS_> great, we can get food ? :)
19:28 @<henne> no more questions
19:28 * cb400f had people come to lug meeting with rtl8168 not working on 10.1
19:28 @<henne> any general question here?
19:28 @<henne> not?
19:28 <Beineri> when next status meeting?
19:28 <darix> cb400f: which isnt a wonder if the driver was added in 2.6.19rc4
19:28 * garloff_ asks cb400f to build a KMP in buildservice :-)
19:28 <darix> (:
19:29 @<henne> okay no more questions
19:29 <cb400f> darix: yes.. just a comment wrt. to the need for a backport
19:29 <aka_druid_> is it over?
19:29 @<henne> then i thank you all for participating
19:29 <adrianS_> garloff_: we do not have yet full support for KMPs in the build service, but we are working on it ...
19:29 <darix> it is all adrianS' fault
19:29 @<henne> the next opensuse status meeting will take place at the 22cnd of november
19:29 @<henne> same time, same channel
19:30 <Tsuroerusu> adrianS_: When that support is added, would it be possible for somebody to build KMPs of NVIDIA and ATi's drivers?
19:30 @<henne> good night and good luck!

The end