Meetings/Status Meeting 2006-10-18/transcript

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Introduction

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(18:00:14) notlocalhorst: Welcome to the openSUSE irc status meeting. The agenda for today:
(18:00:14) notlocalhorst: - Status 10.2
(18:00:14) notlocalhorst: - Status wiki
(18:00:14) notlocalhorst: - Status build service
(18:00:14) notlocalhorst: - Q & A
(18:00:28) notlocalhorst: Let's start with status 10.2, AJ?
(18:00:49) AJaeger: I'm here.
(18:00:56) schaefi: me too

Status 10.2

(18:01:20) notlocalhorst: status 10.2
(18:01:34) AJaeger: Ok, we had two weeks ago our latest Alpha5. Next week we have openSUSE 10.2 Beta1.
(18:02:14) notlocalhorst: questions about status 10.2?
(18:02:21) AJaeger: The basic installation is frozen and we're doing the latest updates. I hope that we do not introduce too many bugs i n the last minutes.
(18:02:41) AJaeger: We're back to the crystal icons for YaST for 10.2, see my email on opensuse-factory.
(18:03:11) schaefi: I had a problem with massive focus changes in KDE, don't know if this is off topic
(18:03:16) AJaeger: That's it basically for now - there'S far too much going on here for me to give a consolidated short view, so please ask.
(18:03:27) AJaeger: schaefi: That's worth a report in bugzilla, please do so.
(18:03:35) schaefi: ok
(18:03:47) notlocalhorst: any other questions reagarding 10.2
(18:03:59) |boubbin|: so will the system automaticly ask me to update the system, when 10.2 is out ?
(18:04:04) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: What sort of state do you at regarding the package management syste mfor 10.2?
(18:04:22) rodrigo_: not a question, but wanted to warn about the gnome package status, if you like
(18:04:23) AJaeger: One further information from my side: We will have an extra Language Add-ON CD with the Tier 2 languages on it.
(18:04:41) AJaeger: boubbin: No, it will not. This kind of feedback is not implemented.
(18:05:09) AJaeger: Tsuroerusu: We have most of the features that we could do in time in.
(18:05:25) cb400f: AJaeger: which languages are tier 2?
(18:05:37) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: Cool, how about stability, reliability and speed?
(18:05:39) AJaeger: It looks stable for me and needs now some really good testing. Have a look at the new opensuse-updater and zypper applications.
(18:06:01) i-nZ: is suse LSB compliant?
(18:06:04) AJaeger: Tsuroerusu: speed could be better - it's better than 10.1 but I guess debian still beats us :-(
(18:06:15) AJaeger: i-nZ: We certified it every time ;-)
(18:06:17) schaefi: AJaeger: zypper is the replacement for rug right ?
(18:06:30) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: At least you beat Debian in terms of KDE support ;)
(18:06:33) AJaeger: schaefi: An alternative, it cannot do everything that rug does.
(18:07:11) AJaeger: cb400f: Tier 1 languages are german, english, spanish, italian, frensh, chinese, japanese, czech - the rest is tier 2 ;-)
(18:07:19) schaefi: AJaeger: I was told it has to be able to handle all the rug features
(18:07:27) parph: how do you improve the speed in new suse releases, what get's changed exactly?
(18:07:47) AJaeger: schaefi: zypper does not have some of the enterprise features like remote management and bundle handling.
(18:08:07) michl: portuguese is tier 1 as well
(18:08:08) AJaeger: parph: I was speaking about the speed of our package management stack.
(18:08:19) AJaeger: michl: correct, pt_BR is tier 1 as well.
(18:08:33) parph: oh
(18:08:54) AJaeger: parph: We did this with profiling, code reviews - and then implementing new algorithm and removing costly operations.
(18:09:47) cb400f: AJaeger: if zypper and opensuse-updater work well, will it possible to not have zmd and rug on kde installations of 10.2?
(18:09:51) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: How do you define a tier-1 langauge? Status of the translation or "supported by Novell"
(18:09:53) AJaeger: General system speed might not be different from 10.1 - the kernel is newer and most applications were updated. But all bring new features as well.
(18:09:54) Tsuroerusu:  ?
(18:10:40) AJaeger: cb400f: Currently supported by Novell. But if they are popular and the state is fine, we can move them.
(18:10:59) AJaeger: Note: Installation is possible in all languages, just OpenOffice, aspell, etc are on the extra CD.
(18:11:23) AJaeger: Tsuroerusu: I was answering your question above and not cb400f's.
(18:11:45) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: How about offering the user the option of pulling the extra language packages off the web?
(18:11:56) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: People hate too many CDs :P
(18:12:02) AJaeger: cb400f: Now really answering your question: Yes, that's the goal. I'm not sure whether this will be the default but it should work...
(18:12:27) cb400f: AJaeger: will the tier2 languages be on the dvd5?
(18:12:31) AJaeger: Tsuroerusu: Should be easy to do - we have a new option that registers the ftp tree during installation and you get those packages easy.
(18:12:45) notlocalhorst: nice
(18:12:52) schaefi: AJaeger: another problem I had was packages mentioned in the .pat files but I couldn't find the appropriate package for it. For example mcelog. Do you know about that ?
(18:13:03) AJaeger: cb400f: If space permits, the DVD5 will be CDs 1-5+Language Add-on+Binary Add-on. So: I hope;-)
(18:13:26) carlosg: one question regarding 10.2 and at the same time build service. can i say it now?
(18:13:34) AJaeger: schaefi: If those are not in our full ftp tree, it's a bug in the pattern - please file it against the component patterns.
(18:13:41) AJaeger: carlosg: go ahead.
(18:13:59) carlosg: for a while some (or all) kde i18n packages are missing some translated strings. i know this bug was already reported and the suse team knows about that but till now nothing have been done, i supposed. i'm afraid this bug could be extend to 10.2...
(18:14:13) adrianS: carlosg: we will not be ready to build openSUSE 10.2 within the build service unfortunatly
(18:14:29) adrianS: carlosg: we will not have the needed for functionality at that point of time
(18:14:39) schaefi: AJaeger: ok I will do that but can you explain why the package manager doesn't complain about that ? are such pattern errors ignored ?
(18:15:00) adrianS: carlosg: It was the original plan, but we will of course support 10.2 as a target within the build service
(18:15:31) AJaeger: schaefi: Patterns have required (must-have), recommend (optional, installed per default) and suggested (optional, not installed) sections, so if mcelog is not required the pattern will still work...
(18:16:02) AJaeger: rodrigo_: I did not understand your comment. Could you elaborate, please?
(18:16:04) carlosg: adrianS: i'm satisfy. thanks :-)
(18:16:19) rodrigo_: yes, I wanted to talk about the gnome packages status
(18:16:26) schaefi: AJaeger: packages in the +Prq section are required right ?
(18:16:31) rodrigo_: for the 2.12->2.16 migration, we disabled several patches
(18:16:44) rodrigo_: (in fact, all patches that didn't apply cleanly were disabled :(
(18:16:59) rodrigo_: so even though we (gnome team) are going over the packages to re-enable them
(18:17:03) AJaeger: schaefi: Yes, there's a page on the wiki explaining all the details. If you have more questions, ask on opensuse-factory and I'll explain.
(18:17:18) rodrigo_: it would be great if people could file bugs for missing functionality/changed behavior from SLED10
(18:17:40) rodrigo_: that is all from me :)
(18:18:08) AJaeger: rodrigo_: Thanks for that feedback! I see especially Dan doing great work at the moment and GNOME looks fine again to me. But such lossage might happen and I agree bugreports are welcome.
(18:18:10) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: Just a fun question if I may, is there any features of SLED 10 that will not be in openSUSE 10.2?
(18:18:22) schaefi: ok, pattern is base-10.2-57.i586.pat, mcelog is +Prq... there are more mistakes in this and other patterns
(18:18:30) rodrigo_: AJaeger: yeah, Dan is going over the most important packages
(18:18:30) AJaeger: Tsuroerusu: Define feature ;-)
(18:18:50) AJaeger: schaefi: Send me an email to aj@suse.de and I'll investigate myself. This looks wrong but I cannot answer right here.
(18:18:56) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: Like some kind of edirectory stuff or YaST management of some service or similar.
(18:19:31) AJaeger: Tsuroerusu: We will not do enterprise testing and enterprise support for openSUSE 10.2 - and there won't be certifications for 10.2. you get all this for SLED10.
(18:19:59) carlosg: regarding 10.2 again: kftpgrabber is a nice (oficial) Kapps and it never had been added to suse. did the suse team forgot about it or simply "ignored" it?
(18:20:05) cb400f: AJaeger: what is the position on beryl?
(18:20:15) AJaeger: Tsuroerusu: edirectory is Novell commercial software and not in openSUSE but LDAP enablement is there as well.
(18:20:49) adrianS: edirectory is not part of SLED either, AFAIK
(18:20:56) adrianS: only a way to connect to it
(18:20:57) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: I am aware of that, but you wanted a definition. :-P
(18:21:07) Tsuroerusu: adrianS: That was what I meant
(18:21:20) adrianS: carlosg: I think nobody cared so far, since konq & kget are dealing fine with ftp servers also
(18:21:25) AJaeger: cb400f: AFAIK it is not yet stable enough for inclusion. It's in the build service and let's see how it will evolve.
(18:21:36) cb400f: ok
(18:21:59) notlocalhorst: adrianS: carlosg: i will talk with the kde guys, it really loogs nice ... and no, kget and konqi are not a replacement for it imho
(18:22:09) carlosg: adrianS: i care about :-) kget is a download application and so do konq. kftpgrabber is a ftp client
(18:22:41) cb400f: carlosg: konq is a great ftp client if you want it to be
(18:22:41) AJaeger: Tsuroerusu: I have not done a package/feature comparison - in general openSUSE should have more features than SLED10, have perhaps a few commercial apps less (edirectory enablement) and SLED has real enterprise support.
(18:23:03) adrianS: ha, a kde guy :)
(18:23:04) AJaeger: Can we go on to the next topic?
(18:23:14) adrianS: Bille: kftpgrabber is wanted by notlocalhorst and carlosg
(18:23:14) carlosg: cb400f: yes i know but as kftpgrabber is a official kapps i think it should be added to 10.2
(18:23:22) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: Regarding no enterprise testing, support and certification for openSUSE 10.2. Fair enough, I trust open community testing a bit more anyway (Which is why I often prefer Fedora over RHEL, if I am to use a Red Hat distro of course), so a more direct question if I may tease you a bit (Please forgive me) , if I wanted to run my blog on openSUSE 10.2, except for the support and stuff, would I loose anything?
(18:23:44) notlocalhorst: ok, next topic please
(18:23:56) notlocalhorst: - Status wiki
(18:23:57) AJaeger: Tsuroerusu: I doubt that you loose anything.
(18:24:21) AJaeger: Tsuroerusu: Unless you want to stay for more than 2 years with it - and you would use SLES not SLED ;-)

Status wiki

(18:24:39) notlocalhorst: (i just go on ...) Frank is not here, so i will answer this one:
(18:24:51) notlocalhorst: the plan is to make the new language selector page at www.opensuse.org on 19.10, the new frontpage design on 20.10, so pretty soon. All new languages which a not announced so far will officially go online when it's done.
(18:24:56) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: I run OpenBSD right now, and it's only one year of security patch support, so it's not a big deal
(18:25:19) notlocalhorst: Tsuroerusu: please lets go on ...
(18:25:25) Tsuroerusu: Sorry
(18:25:25) notlocalhorst: any questions about the wiki
(18:25:32) notlocalhorst: Tsuroerusu: no problem :-)
(18:26:07) notlocalhorst: no? good :-)
(18:26:12) Tsuroerusu: notlocalhorst: Is there any sort of info we should avoid posting on the wiki?
(18:26:27) Tsuroerusu: notlocalhorst: Like: HOWTO "Fully featured MPlayer" on SUSE Linux :P
(18:26:38) schaefi:  :-)
(18:26:46) notlocalhorst: Tsuroerusu: sure, everything which is illegal or offending
(18:26:59) adrianS: Tsuroerusu: you can describe what to do, but you are not allowed to make links to illegal content
(18:27:01) notlocalhorst: but yes, there is a thin line and different laws
(18:27:35) notlocalhorst: we are working on a document which describes that ...
(18:27:39) adrianS: Tsuroerusu: so you can say that there is some project which allows to play ... under ... and may be legal under ...
(18:27:56) adrianS: Tsuroerusu: but you can not recommend to download "this"
(18:28:22) adrianS: we would need to remove that, if someone points us to it according to our legel dept.
(18:29:06) notlocalhorst: yes ... other wiki questions?
(18:29:18) Tsuroerusu: adrianS: Hehe cool, that's similar to the rules I followed when I wrote an article on how hack the Xbox and install Linux on the thing, in that case you refer to "the usual places" being a big-ass FTP server with homebrew tools and stuff (NOT Warez), I guess just saying "Packman" is kinda the same thing.
(18:29:59) notlocalhorst: Tsuroerusu: if you have doubts, just ask on the wiki list

Status build service

(18:30:33) notlocalhorst: let's go on, next topic is - Status build service ... adrianS or mls?
(18:30:42) adrianS: we switched to iChain
(18:31:02) adrianS: it works in general, but we face some problems with certain packages to be fixed
(18:31:05) rodrigo_ opens the champagne :)
(18:31:23) adrianS: and it had a bit more performance impact than we thought by our former testing
(18:31:32) Tsuroerusu pops open a diet coke
(18:31:35) adrianS: but we have some ideas how to improve that
(18:31:48) adrianS: apart from that mls, abauer and cschum do plan API changes
(18:32:00) adrianS: they are currently discussing the new (incompatible) API
(18:32:16) adrianS: last but not least, we do not have to full build power atm
(18:32:24) adrianS: since some build hosts are switched off
(18:32:34) adrianS: and we do experiment with XEN on some others
(18:32:43) adrianS: so we are not in a really stable mode atm
(18:33:03) adrianS: I think this is it for now
(18:33:13) adrianS: ah, and we started somme workgroups
(18:33:25) adrianS: one for defining the requirements for system images
(18:33:41) adrianS: one for defining what rules are valid and how packages become part of openSUSE
(18:33:53) adrianS: one for defining our processes
(18:34:17) adrianS: I think this esp. important regarding the icon discussion on opensuse-factory these days ....
(18:34:34) adrianS: so these groups will create a draft which will be discussed public later
(18:34:47) adrianS: and yet another group for the openSUSE constitution :)
(18:35:05) Tsuroerusu: We need a first amendment :P
(18:35:06) adrianS: any questions regarding the build service ?
(18:35:13) Tsuroerusu: adrianS: Any idea of when the build service will be stable, open to the public and party afterwards?
(18:35:44) adrianS: stable depends on what you mean
(18:35:54) adrianS: stable backends are doable within 1 month, I hope
(18:36:09) adrianS: but we will still develop on features which we need to make it public
(18:36:22) Tsuroerusu: adrianS: Let's say reliable, something that say the Amarok team could depend on for cranking out packages, and daily SVN builds.
(18:36:37) adrianS: and something what we do not really know is when we get the needed hardware for dealing with it
(18:36:58) adrianS: Tsuroerusu: okay that are almost the backends, I have the hope to have this within 1 month
(18:37:04) adrianS: but I do not want to promise it
(18:37:21) adrianS: you know, you have no idea how much work a bugfix does require for sure ;)
(18:37:36) Tsuroerusu: adrianS: Yeah certain history tells us that
(18:37:45) Tsuroerusu: adrianS: EhhhmmmmZMDEhhhmmmm
(18:37:58) adrianS: okay, anything regarding the build service ?
(18:38:14) adrianS: so lets move on ...

Q & A

(18:38:32) notlocalhorst: ok, next topic is q&A, lets start: an offline question from James: I would like to know if the group is planning on moving up it's priority on LTSP and or MueKow.
(18:38:56) notlocalhorst: AJaeger: ?
(18:39:24) AJaeger: LTSP = Linux Terminal Server project?
(18:39:31) notlocalhorst: yes
(18:40:06) AJaeger: Something that has come up several times and I suggest that those interested in it start working with the BuildService on it.
(18:40:33) notlocalhorst: ok, next one: from Manoloudis: Is it possible to have some suggested AppArmor profile configurations for some key applications? For example to have a suggested profile configuration for Firefox so that if (or when) a major vulnerability is discovered, one can consult the wiki on how to create a profile for this web browser.
(18:41:03) notlocalhorst: i guess the profiles are already somewhere? apparmor guys here?
(18:41:06) AJaeger: It's nothing that Novell currently is interested in and I fear we have more important areas to work on - but if others help doing it, we could think of integrating it.
(18:41:15) adrianS: The apparmor team is wokring on that together with us (opensuse)
(18:41:17) AJaeger: I'm surprised by this one.
(18:41:22) notlocalhorst: me too
(18:41:32) adrianS: so, expect a apparmor.opensuse.org at some time :)
(18:41:35) AJaeger: WE have already a lot of AppArmor profiles and there should be one for Firefox.
(18:42:07) notlocalhorst: yes, on the list there are coming more and more new profiles from the community ..
(18:42:11) AJaeger: notlocalhorst: Could you ask the AppArmor guys to follow up on opensuse-factory?
(18:42:19) notlocalhorst: ok
(18:42:27) notlocalhorst: last offline question:
(18:42:35) adrianS: notlocalhorst: and the apparmor team wants to host & rate them in future on opensuse
(18:42:51) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: An AppArmor Profile Community Repository, now that's a build service project!
(18:43:10) notlocalhorst: twanj: Has anyone tried metalink for the ISO downloads? Do you have any comments or suggestions to improve the process?
(18:43:18) AJaeger: Tsuroerusu: Something similar like that is one of the dreams of the AppArmor team....
(18:43:19) notlocalhorst: i dont know what metalink is ...
(18:43:39) twanj: metalink is an XML file that lists mirrors & checksums
(18:43:40) adrianS: notlocalhorst: I answered a mail regarding this on a list
(18:43:45) notlocalhorst: cool
(18:44:00) adrianS: we should first support it with a GUI client on a released opensuse distribution
(18:44:16) AJaeger: So, do we have a package already?
(18:44:22) adrianS: afaik no
(18:44:25) twanj: so a download manager app can download in segments from multiple sources, then the checksum or pgp sig is automatically verified
(18:44:44) adrianS: twanj: is there a stable GUI application for it already ?
(18:44:45) twanj: there is CLI client now, the GUI depends on wxwidgets
(18:45:03) adrianS: okay, it should get package than in first place
(18:45:07) twanj: the GUI isn't really stable. KGet is adding it for KDE4
(18:45:17) twanj: ok
(18:45:48) notlocalhorst: no more offline questions, anything else?
(18:45:56) benJIman: I have a question.
(18:46:16) notlocalhorst: go ahead
(18:46:55) benJIman: It seems to me that so far we are only seeing the drawbacks of "community", are there any plans to do things such as the "junior jobs" in kde's bugzilla and suggested projects for community involvement?
(18:47:56) adrianS: so you request of a list of open jobs ?
(18:48:22) adrianS: or did I misunderstand you ?
(18:48:26) cb400f: tasks I think he means
(18:48:35) cb400f: like yast crystal icons for 10.3
(18:48:35) notlocalhorst: we already asked (and had) for booth support for linuxtag, many like cboltz are working very hard on bugzilla, we have the buildserver ...
(18:48:55) notlocalhorst: and we have also an open tasklist .. but yes, we could do more
(18:49:09) adrianS: in general we have bugzilla and http://en.opensuse.org/Tasks for this
(18:49:14) notlocalhorst: right
(18:49:19) AJaeger: The docu team wanted to start a Lessons for Lizard book.
(18:49:30) adrianS: the later one could get a bit more attentention from all sides :/
(18:49:31) AJaeger: But yes, those are not getting off really good.
(18:49:34) benJIman: adrianS: but there is not afaik a clear way for people who want to help to see appropriate things, or even a procedure for community members to help
(18:49:41) Tsuroerusu: Ajaeger: LOL, the school of Geeko!
(18:49:42) benJIman: with development rather than all the extras.
(18:50:11) adrianS: benJIman: well, the procedure is highly different depending on the task
(18:50:38) adrianS: benJIman: but I aggree we should try better to coordinate open tasks and skilled people who want to do something in $are
(18:50:40) adrianS: area
(18:50:59) mvidner: would people be interested in minor tasks in YaST?
(18:51:09) benJIman: mvidner: that sort of thing would be ideal
(18:51:20) adrianS: I think the Tasks page should be a valid start point, it may links to other lists
(18:51:30) benJIman: mvidner: It requires thought though.
(18:51:37) mvidner: so I'll bring it up in the team
(18:52:24) adrianS: mvidner: if you have such a list, please link it in the Tasks page
(18:52:32) AJaeger: I propose: AI notlocalhorst to drive this.
(18:52:47) notlocalhorst: yes, thanks
(18:53:08) notlocalhorst: we will cover this up and think about how to improve that ...
(18:53:41) notlocalhorst: other questions?
(18:53:45) benJIman: Is it currently possible to assign bugzilla tickets to onesself, as not a suse employee?
(18:53:54) adrianS: yes
(18:54:04) benJIman: ok so could utilise that perhaps.
(18:54:40) AJaeger: benJIman: You have full control over bugzilla ;-)
(18:55:23) adrianS: okay, anything else ?
(18:55:24) notlocalhorst: nothing more?
(18:55:56) AJaeger: time for dinner ;-)
(18:55:58) cb400f: we expect same cd layout as 10.1 except the languages party?
(18:56:01) cb400f: -y
(18:56:10) adrianS: too late ;)
(18:56:13) notlocalhorst: ok, lets call it a day ... i will upload the script in the morning and will add the AIs .. to mee :-) thanks everybody
(18:56:16) AJaeger: cb400f: No, it changes slightly.
(18:56:35) AJaeger: cb400f: Some packages are moved around...
(18:56:36) cb400f: still 3 cds for standard KDE/GNOME?
(18:56:50) AJaeger: cb400f: Yes, 3 CDs for standard GNOME/KDE.
(18:56:50) cb400f: english/german
(18:56:59) cb400f: good
(18:57:09) AJaeger: cb400f: All tier1 languages, so even french.
(18:57:20) carlosg: ah, forgot to ask! i'm one of the susept forum moderators and recently a person asked if yast (on suse 10.1) had really removed the import/export packages feature. he and i saw on the official documentation that this feature was available, but nop, it wasn't. has anyone something to says about it?
(18:57:21) cb400f: wow ;-)
(18:57:26) AJaeger: cb400f: Just for danish you need the extra language add on ;-)
(18:57:33) cb400f:  :-(
(18:58:10) AJaeger: carlosg: That's one of the casulties moving to a new package manager stack. It's on our todo list to add it again.
(18:58:25) carlosg: AJaeger: cool.
(18:58:26) cb400f: AJaeger: compared to 10.1 cd5 is replaced with lang. addon.. not a big loss
(18:58:54) AJaeger: cb400f: This time you know whether you need CD4 or CD5 for your language ;-)
(18:59:06) cb400f: yes, good point ;-)
(18:59:28) notlocalhorst: i will save now the log, have fun ...
(18:59:28) adrianS: okay, have a nice evening
(18:59:30) adrianS: bye
(18:59:31) notlocalhorst: thanks
(18:59:39) benJIman: Thanks all.