Meetings/Project Meeting 2008-04-09/transcript

14:00 @<henne> Welcome to the openSUSE Project Meeting! 14:00 @<henne> This meeting is meant to discuss the latest developments in and around openSUSE. 14:00 @<henne> The agenda for this meeting is: 14:00 @<henne> 1. Old Action Items 14:00 @<henne> 2. Status Questions 14:00 @<henne> 3. Q & A 14:00 @<henne> Hey Ho, Lets go! 14:00 <coolo> welcome to you too, henne 14:01 @<henne> first topic. Old action items 14:01 @<henne> you can find the action item ins bugzilla with this link: http://tinyurl.com/2pr9qs 14:01 @<henne> Bug #164761 14:01 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 164761 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] built service trust/rating system" [Normal,Assigned] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=164761 14:02 @<henne> adrianS: will there anything happen here in the near future? 14:03 @<henne> seems like hes not there... 14:03 @<henne> soo still blocked *sigh* 14:03 @<henne> Bug #223290 14:03 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 223290 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] better wishlist handling using FATE" [Normal,Assigned] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=223290 14:04 @<henne> asking cwh 14:04 @<henne> no progress there 14:04 <adrianS> henne: someone will stark to work on trust system as his diploma thesis in near future 14:04 @<henne> adrianS: cool :) 14:05 @<henne> can you say a date? 14:05 <adrianS> IIRC next month, but I need to check 14:06 @<henne> nice 14:06 @<henne> Bug #238355 14:06 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 238355 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] status of cn wiki" [Normal,Needinfo] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=238355 14:07 @<henne> darix: do you know of any updates here? 14:07 @<henne> anyone? 14:08 @<henne> okay. still not done. as Bug #293726 probably 14:08 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 293726 in openSUSE.org (wiki) "[AI] Creation of Babel wiki" [Enhancement,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=293726 14:09 @<henne> Bug #343444 14:09 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 343444 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] bugzilla wizard to qualify bugreports" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=343444 14:09 @<henne> also still blocked 14:09 @<henne> we start to suck again with action items :-/ 14:10 @<henne> okay second topic then: Status Questions 14:10 @<henne> you can find the status mails linked from the meeting page in the wiki 14:10 @<henne> any questions regarding them? 14:11 @<henne> oki doki 14:12 @<henne> so third and last topic: Q&A 14:12 @<henne> question from cb400f: I'd like to suggest a discussion of reasons for not making KDE3 easily selectable on 11.0 installation. Also see bug #374798 14:12 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 374798 in openSUSE 11.0 (Installation) "System Type Selection Should Detail KDE Version" [Enhancement,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=374798 14:13 @<henne> this discussion is finished on -factory or? 14:13 <michl> not really 14:13 <michl> there is a suggestion around but no feedback yet 14:13 <michl> but generally, yes we should make KDE3 simple avialable on DVD 14:14 <michl> comments, feedback here? 14:15 <_Marcus_> the basic problem is that kde4 is not seen as stable 14:15 <_Marcus_> or sufficient well developed 14:15 @<henne> yes but thats a perception problem from certain people 14:15 <_Marcus_> so there should be a KDE3 option, or KDE3 default 14:15 <michl> there are pros and cons and that's why we should give a choice 14:15 <michl> option 14:15 @<henne> just from experience 14:15 <mrdocs> i am not one to grumble about decisions like this, but i do see it is a legitimate concern (not knocking at all the great stuff done by the kde team) 14:16 <_Marcus_> i also see it as legitimate concern 14:16 <dirk> can anyone of you put the list of legitimate reasons for the legitimate concern up somewhere so that the kde team can answer/work on them? 14:16 <mrdocs> i did the wofe test with kde4 last night 14:16 @<henne> but isnt it enough to have KDE3 on the DVD then? 14:16 @<henne> without install time option 14:16 <mrdocs> no 14:16 <dirk> the general "uhh, it doesn't work, I won't use it" doesn't help anyone 14:17 @<henne> exactly 14:17 <coolo> dirk: the request is from cb400f, who sent a very detailed report on opensuse-kde 14:17 <coolo> [opensuse-kde] KDE4.x feedback 14:17 <coolo> [opensuse-kde] 11.0a3 feedback 14:17 <coolo> dirk: good luck 14:17 <dirk> coolo: and those were handled 14:18 <dirk> coolo: or are you just ignoring the replies? 14:18 @<henne> everytime we checkend out of such a switch we did more harm then good 14:18 <coolo> dirk: but the general feeling generated by the 11.0 development so far is that KDE4 updates replace one set of problems with another ;( 14:18 @<henne> chickend* 14:19 <coolo> dirk: I was just pointing out that there is no general "uhh, it doesn't work" but concrete feedback by concrete people 14:19 <coolo> dirk: and if you wouldn't invent "it's all fixed" arguments, I would trust your opinion ;) 14:19 <dirk> coolo: yup, and I was just pointing out that those concerns were listened to 14:19 @<henne> we do want people to move to KDE4 right? 14:19 <Beineri> coolo: which you consider as unfixable in the remaining time frame? 14:20 <dirk> coolo: its just that there are about 4 fate's on my list before beta1 and it is not much different for other team members, so it is quite naturally that bug fixing will not be done before beta1 14:20 <coolo> Beineri: it's not me to convince. it's cb400f 14:20 <coolo> and no-one so far wanted the default back to kde3, just having an "easy" way to select it 14:20 <coolo> and michl got cold feet too - having seen kde4 through out the alpha phase 14:21 <coolo> dirk: the problem is we need a plan B _now_ 14:21 <coolo> we always said beta1 is the time we need to answer the quality of KDE4 14:21 <dirk> is plan A to add the KDE3 option to the installer? 14:21 <dirk> or what is plan A? 14:21 <coolo> and so far it looks, KDE4 won't please everyone - so let's have both KDEs available easily on DVD 14:21 @<henne> no one is against that 14:22 <dl9pf> kde3 pattern with switch in the menu ? 14:22 <coolo> dirk: plan A is "KDE" will be 4.0 and KDE3 will be somewhere, no-one will care about it 14:22 @<henne> but why do we have to introduce another stupid question inthe installation workflow? 14:22 <coolo> henne: no questions asked 14:22 @<henne> in michls proposal there is a new question 14:23 <coolo> henne: the request is _basically_ to put kde3 on the same level than the unsupport icewm and xfce :) 14:23 <Beineri> and it's need proper communication that KDE3 will be on DVD for the skeptics, like pointing to http://en.opensuse.org/Media_Layout/11.0 14:23 <coolo> (or drop xfce from the list and put kde3 in) 14:23 <coolo> henne: yeah, there is a reason michl is not UI designer but PM :) 14:23 <KevinYo> henne: Put it in the advnaced options screen on the desktop enviroment screen 14:23 <michl> no, my suggestion is to ask which KDE you want after choosing KDE 14:24 @<henne> michl: exaclty. which is another stupid question 14:24 <Beineri> and what KDE the KDE CD is about, but that was already rejected ;-( bug 377614 14:24 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 377614 in openSUSE 11.0 (Live Medium) "Rename KDE CD ISOs (live and single) to KDE4" [Enhancement,Resolved: wontfix] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=377614 14:24 <michl> the point here is that probably with KDE 3/4 there is no right way 14:24 <michl> what ever we do someone will complain 14:25 @<henne> true 14:25 @<henne> so full steam ahead 14:25 @<henne> instead of chicken around 14:25 <coolo> michl: so why change the strategy then? 14:25 @<henne> imho :) 14:25 <Beineri> michl: any plan when we will have openSUSE 11.1 with KDE 4.1? :-) 14:25 <coolo> michl: http://www.amazon.de/Paradox-Choice-More-Harper-Perennial/dp/0060005696/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/303-0819834-3481010 14:25 <michl> seeing the discussions on mls there is not 100% confidence with KDE4 14:26 @<henne> there never is 100% confidence with anything 14:26 <dirk> coolo: and did michl give a reason why? 14:26 <dirk> michl: hows that different from anythign else? 14:26 @<henne> i think we should not forget what we usually do with openSUSE 14:26 <dirk> there is never 100% confidence in kernel 2.6.n+1 14:26 <michl> Beineri: current plans for 11.1 are in direction Dec '07 14:26 @<henne> and which is the thing that differtiates us from other distributions 14:27 <Beineri> michl: thanks 14:27 <Beineri> michl: wait, 07? 14:27 <michl> '08 14:27 <michl> :-) 14:27 @<henne> we usualy try to do a snapshot of whats up in the FOSS community 14:27 <tacit> Debian decided not to ship it with next stable, but I'd like to see KDE4 in. Not everybody will be forced to upgrade to 11.0 anyway. The KDE3 types can stay with the supported 10.3. 14:27 @<henne> and if KDE moves to KDE4 so should we 14:28 <coolo> tacit: or use KDE3 on 11.0, it will be supported even longer than 10.3 14:28 <coolo> tacit: this is exactly the misconception we see a lot 14:28 <Beineri> and as said, 11.1 will arrive rather quickly... 14:28 <Beineri> (maybe without KDE3 included?) 14:28 <dirk> coolo: who is there to blame, as you publish everywhere that the opensuse kde team is not supporting kde3 anymore? 14:29 <dirk> I *hope* there will be no need for KDE3 on 11.1 14:29 <dirk> thats the goal we should try to accomplish 14:29 * adrianS hopes even to get networkmanager and powersave also for KDE 4 on 11.0 :) 14:29 <dirk> and we only accomplish that by fixing the stuff that is missing, and thats what the opensuse KDE team does already 14:29 <Beineri> dirk: so as many people as possible should start to use KDE4 :-) 14:30 <dirk> Beineri: exactly. 14:30 <coolo> dirk: where did I publish that? 14:30 <dirk> but I don't like "oh.. PM has gotten cold feed" without any concrete feedback on what we should improve 14:30 <michl> may you do the who said when, what stuff face to face 14:31 <dirk> coolo: I've seen it in several places, I've not had time to reply to each of them because I'm still 17341 emails behind 14:31 @<henne> get a room 14:31 <michl> there are several discussions on mls about that 14:31 * dirk is finsihed :) 14:31 <wolfiR> going for KDE4 probably means more non-security online updates for 11.0 in KDE4 land IMHO 14:31 <michl> there are people in favor of KDE4 and some not 14:31 @<henne> michl: yes there are. but as you said yourself: whatever you do, some people will complain 14:32 <coolo> wolfiR: more than for GNOME 2.20 on 10.3? hardly :) 14:32 <wolfiR> coolo: probably not but more than for KDE3 on 10.3? 14:32 @<henne> michl: so ythat cant be a factor in our decision 14:32 <michl> but it seems that the some people group in that case might be not small but experienced users 14:33 <coolo> wolfiR: 10.3's KDE4 we did not update at all, this will change. yes 14:33 <michl> as around 2/3 of our users use KDE, KDE needs to be in good shape 14:35 @<henne> so we either play save or not 14:35 @<henne> but please dont make this an install time option 14:35 <michl> save would mean offer KDE3 in a convenient way 14:36 * adrianS uses KDE4 UNSTABLE packages from dirk + some KDE 3 apps and it is good enough for daily use 14:36 * henne thinks a KDE3 pattern is a very convenient way 14:36 <tacit> I think those who really want to stay on KDE3 can use a pattern, they don't need an outright install option. 14:36 <coolo> adrianS: that unfortunately does not help us a dime as we ship STABLE 14:36 <michl> I'm not a friend of asking more questions during installation but where to put KDE3 then? 14:36 <tacit> Or they stay on 10.3 14:36 <coolo> michl: I asked you to try switching to kde3 in alpha3. did you ? 14:37 <tacit> michl: Same as in 10.3, but KDE4 being the default and KDE3 available as a pattern. 14:37 <adrianS> coolo: STABLE is of course even more usable as the name says ;) 14:37 @<henne> michl: in the ftp tree 14:37 <coolo> adrianS: which is unfortunately not the case 14:37 @<henne> or make it part of community repo's 14:37 <adrianS> coolo: so switching to 4.1 branch would make sense ? 14:38 <Beineri> coolo: make a list with the points that don't work for you 14:38 <adrianS> I mean we do not want to make a release what makes 2/3 of our users unhappy, IMHO we would need to move the release in worst case 14:38 <coolo> Beineri: again, it's not about me 14:38 <adrianS> but releasing with KDE 3 makes no sense either ... 14:39 <Beineri> coolo: can you reason the statement you made, or not? 14:39 <coolo> Beineri: do you read opensuse-factory or not? 14:39 <Beineri> coolo: people complaining about things fixed for 2 weeks, things they experience with KDE4 packages on 10.3? 14:40 <coolo> Beineri: I'm talking about feelings generated during the alpha phase 14:40 <dirk> > 80% of the KDE4 bugreports are filed against 10.3 though 14:40 <coolo> and the fact we need to have a plan B 14:41 <dirk> where kde4 has additional issues 14:41 @<henne> so 14:41 <Beineri> coolo: so they are now "feelings" and not facts why STABLE is less usable than UNSTABLE packages? 14:41 @<henne> we dont come to a decision 14:41 @<henne> looks like this is a case for the board 14:41 <coolo> Beineri: dirk told me several times "long fixed in SVN" 14:42 <dirk> coolo: which is why we do regularly branch updates 14:42 <Beineri> coolo: and you did ask which branch? 14:42 <dirk> at least in the buildservice 14:42 @<henne> peepz 14:42 <benJIman> henne: Why for the board? It's the KDE team who know what they can accomplish in the remaining time. It is they who have to fix the bugs going up to and post release. 14:42 @<henne> benJIman: because the people who could make the decision (coolo, michl) dont do it :) 14:43 * dirk sends michl a fuesswärmer and suggests to move on 14:44 <wolfiR> I agree that the core KDE team has to make the call if it'll be usable in time 14:44 <FunkyPenguin_mob> henne: i think involving the board in such a descision could be messy 14:44 <michl> to move on with KDE4 default, right? 14:44 <benJIman> Since when was the board supposed to interfere with technical decisions anyway? 14:44 <coolo> I'm not aware of that either 14:45 @<henne> the board was supposed to interfere with decisions the people involved cant/wont decide 14:45 <coolo> henne: but about project stuff, not distribution stuff 14:45 @<henne> The openSUSE board was setup to lead the overall project. The main tasks for members of the board are: 14:45 @<henne> Facilitate decision making processes where needed. 14:45 @<henne> from http://en.opensuse.org/Board 14:46 <coolo> henne: facilitate decision making != deciding :) 14:46 <benJIman> It also "shouldn't direct or control development, " 14:46 @<henne> i really dont care 14:46 <michl> does the KDE team agree to go the KDE4 path? 14:46 @<henne> what i do care is that someone makes the decision 14:47 <coolo> michl: that's not the question and never was 14:47 @<henne> so not the board. we already heard the kde team want to go with KDE4 14:47 <coolo> the path is either "KDE4 only" or "KDE3 easy available" 14:47 @<henne> and with KDE3 as pattern not as install time option 14:47 @<henne> right? 14:48 @<henne> whoever thinks hes "the" kde team should answer now :) 14:48 <FunkyPenguin_mob> well im not a major kde user, but i do use it from time to time and would like to have the option of both 14:49 <coolo> FunkyPenguin_mob: you have, just not an easy one 14:49 <Beineri> henne: why do you insists on "kde3 only as pattern"? 14:49 <dirk> henne: the whole discussion was about an install option of kde3, right? 14:49 @<henne> yes 14:49 <dirk> henne: the kde3 pattern has always been there, unless coolo explicitely deleted it (which I doubt) 14:49 <FunkyPenguin_mob> but if space is an issue then my suggestion is to have kde4 the default with kde3 available either via pre configured "Community" repo or advertised 1click 14:49 @<henne> Beineri: i dont 14:50 @<henne> Beineri: thats what i gathered as your (and dirks) opinion 14:50 @<henne> correct me if im wrong 14:51 <Beineri> henne: dunno from where you quote me with that 14:51 <dirk> henne: I was talking about not going back to KDE3 as default, because somebody has got cold feet somewhere 14:51 @<henne> whatever. can you tell us your opinion now? 14:51 <dirk> henne: I don't have an opinion against a KDE3 install option, in fact I don't care 14:51 <dirk> I think choice is good, and if we add a KDE3 install option, thats just fine with me 14:51 @<henne> Beineri? 14:52 @<henne> okay with that? 14:52 <benJIman> It might mean more bug reports for KDE3 -> less time to work on KDE4 of course. 14:52 @<henne> benJIman: oh it will be for sure. i just remember 7.1 with kernel 2.4/2.6 14:52 <coolo> benJIman: the description of kde3 would still contain the phrase that this is no longer support upstream - and on that base we would WONTFIX a lot 14:53 <coolo> especially as 11.1 is not supposed to have it 14:53 @<henne> benJIman: developers put all their efforts in 2.6, users use 2.4, 2.4 is shitty as hell 14:53 <benJIman> coolo: Still things like the paths/default associations/menu configuration etc take time to fix. 14:53 <benJIman> And they are all downstream settings. 14:54 * FunkyPenguin_mob makes the decision to go with kde4 and is happy to suffer the consequences :) 14:54 @<henne> Beineri: we are still waiting for your decision :) 14:55 <dirk> benJIman: yep, but its kind of backwards to say "becaus the kde team will not be able to fix kde4 in time, we're not reporting issues, and consider going back to kde3" 14:55 <Beineri> henne: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=374798#c5 14:55 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 374798 in openSUSE 11.0 (Installation) "System Type Selection Should Detail KDE Version" [Enhancement,New] 14:55 <benJIman> dirk: I wasn't suggesting that, I was just pointing out that you should consider the additional workload of fixing kde3 bugs when deciding whether to have it as a first class installation option. 14:55 <dirk> I also often hear about problems somewhere like "uhh, it just hangs" but I never see a concrete bugreport 14:56 <coolo> benJIman: if we have it as first class or not, if it's there we need to fix quite some bugs in it 14:56 <coolo> we fix icewm bugs from time to time too ;) 14:56 @<henne> okay cool 14:56 @<henne> then we have a decision 14:56 @<henne> KDE3/KDE4 as install time option 14:57 @<henne> speak now or forever hold your peace! 14:58 <FunkyPenguin_mob> looks like the ayes have it 14:58 @<henne> okay 14:59 @<henne> next question is from cboltz: On which day of LinuxTag is the openSUSE day? Are other details of the schedule already known? 14:59 @<henne> anyone knows? michl? 14:59 <michl> I don't 14:59 <michl> mlasars does 14:59 @<henne> hes on vacation 14:59 <Beineri> linuxtag wiki also doesn't state day yet 14:59 @<henne> but i think its on saturday 15:00 @<henne> so cboltz ask notlocalhorst directly pelase 15:00 @<henne> Beineri asks for more feedback on greeter text/links, default desktop icons and browser start page/portal 15:00 @<henne> http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2008-04/msg00003.html 15:01 @<henne> anyone? :) 15:01 <Beineri> the easy solution is to change nothing ;-| 15:02 <benJIman> There was quite a few complaints from those who worked on the help.opensuse.org about the way it turned out. 15:02 <benJIman> *were 15:02 <Beineri> means two desktop icons, no text in greeter about Help or Forums 15:02 <Beineri> maybe change help.o.o at some time later 15:02 @<henne> benJIman: not in that thread or? 15:03 @<henne> thats one of the reasons we did help.o.o. to be able to change stuff afterwards no? 15:03 <benJIman> At 10.3 release time. 15:03 <benJIman> It was originally going to be a greeter-esq window, then decision was made to use a web page for easier modifications etc. Then the web team stepped in and mandated that it be cooerced into the standard page layout. 15:04 <Beineri> concerning a start page/portal I would suggest to create some empty www.opensuse.org/start.php or alike page which just redirects to www.opensuse.org but allows to place something there later if more people are interested/have time 15:04 <benJIman> I've also seen absoluteyl no evidence that people find IRC via the help icon. 15:04 @<henne> benJIman: which was denied 15:04 <benJIman> Which means it's not doing its job. 15:04 <benJIman> What was denied? 15:04 @<henne> benJIman: most of the stuff the usability team requested 15:05 <Beineri> benJIman: for 11.0+ we should think about how to point people to openSUSE forums rather than IRC imo 15:05 <benJIman> Wasn't usability team, it was web people, which is why it's in the opensuse template now. 15:05 <benJIman> Beineri: You seem very optimistic that the forums will be ready. 15:05 @<henne> benJIman: it was rlihm 15:05 <benJIman> Beineri: I'm not sure they're finding anything through help though. 15:06 @<henne> this has to stay people 15:06 * FunkyPenguin_mob prefers irc over forums 15:06 <Beineri> benJIman: remembering the newsfeed that was linked in 10.1 or 10.2 but was never created you're maybe right ;-( 15:06 <Beineri> benJIman: but can we at least try to be optimistic? :-) 15:06 @<henne> please 15:07 <benJIman> Beineri: The design failed -> needs fixing. 15:07 @<henne> can we stop discussin to drop all this? 15:07 <Beineri> henne: ? 15:07 <Beineri> henne: if this meeting is not for discussion... ? 15:07 @<henne> yes 15:07 @<henne> it is. and my input is that we cant drop this again 15:07 <benJIman> Suggestion is to fix it rather than dropping it. 15:08 @<henne> okay 15:08 @<henne> so how to fix it? 15:08 <benJIman> But I don't think there's any point discussing the details here. 15:08 @<henne> sounds like you have an idea 15:09 <FunkyPenguin_mob> Beineri: i would like to see all forms of help available either by greeter or clicking on help icon 15:09 @<henne> why would we not discuss it here? 15:09 <benJIman> Just AI to discuss and propose it and move on? 15:10 <FunkyPenguin_mob> maybe the help icon should become the greeter with hyperlinks to the relevant help option? 15:10 <benJIman> Because there are design and technical issues, would take a while. 15:10 @<henne> Beineri: fine with that? 15:10 <benJIman> When does it have to be done by? (Freeze date) 15:10 <Beineri> Monday 15:11 <Beineri> henne: "AI to discuss"? when? where? 15:11 @<henne> apparently benJIman has an idea and need to post it to the thread :) 15:12 @<henne> today. so you have time to implement it by monday 15:12 <Beineri> fine for me, some noone else cares 15:12 <Beineri> s/some/seems/ 15:12 @<henne> i think all the ideas you had are cool 15:12 @<henne> and you should just do it[tm] 15:13 <Beineri> as last time, and then take out half of the text out of the greeter again when some people disagree? ;-( 15:14 @<henne> Beineri: if you agree yes :) 15:14 <benJIman> I'm only thinking about the online help thing. 15:14 <benJIman> The greeter I'm not sure serves much purpose, but I thought it was a requirement from somewhere to have it? 15:14 <Beineri> sometimes PM has an opinion ;-) 15:15 <michl> PM never has an opinion 15:15 <michl> the community has 15:15 @<henne> heh 15:15 <Beineri> or not 15:15 <Beineri> </endofquestion> 15:16 @<henne> so Beineri you implement your ideas in the greeter text 15:16 @<henne> and benJIman comes up with his ideas for help.o.o 15:16 <rlihm> benJIman: ping me if i can help you somehow with help.o.o 15:18 <benJIman> Ok, I'll talk to the others involved too. 15:19 @<henne> AI benJIman come up with betterments for help.o.o 15:19 <apokryphos> i.e. images 8) 15:20 @<henne> so that was it from Q&A section from the wiki 15:20 @<henne> anything else? 15:20 <apokryphos> is coolo feeding only tic-tacs to his child? 15:20 @<henne> one per week 15:21 @<henne> so nothing else? no general questions or anything? 15:21 @<henne> Okay that was it then. If you have more, dont hesitate to bring it up on the appropriate mailinglist. 15:21 @<henne> The next project meeting will be at the 23rd of April. Same channel but this time at 17:00 GMT!!! 15:21 @<henne> The next meeting is the KDE meeting next week at 18:00 GMT over at #opensuse-kde. 15:21 @<henne> Thank you all for participating. Good night and good luck!