Meetings/Project Meeting 2008-02-06/transcript

18:00 @<henne> Welcome to the openSUSE Project Meeting! 18:00 @<henne> This meeting is meant to discuss the latest developments in and around openSUSE. 18:00 @<henne> The agenda for this meeting is: 18:00 @<henne> 0. Old Action Items 18:00 @<henne> 1. Introduction of Joe Brockmeier 18:00 @<henne> 2. Discussing the Code of Conduct 18:00 @<henne> 3. Status Questions 18:00 @<henne> 4. Q & A 18:00 @<henne> Hey Ho, Lets go! 18:00 @<henne> first topic 18:00 @<henne> old action items 18:01 @<henne> You can find the Action Items in Bugzilla with this link: http://tinyurl.com/2pr9qs 18:01 * henne plugs the undersea cable to bugzilla in again 18:02 @<henne> okay here we go 18:02 @<henne> Bug #164761 18:02 @<henne> is rupert around? 18:02 @<henne> adrianS can you give an update? 18:03 <dragotin> adrianS: is not here 18:03 @<henne> do you know any news there dragotin? :) 18:03 <dragotin> but the trust rating stuff is in discussion 18:03 <dragotin> yes, he wrote a proposal 18:04 <dragotin> I did not read it yet 18:04 @<henne> where to? 18:04 <yaloki> there isn't any talk about it at FOSDEM (which is what the bug is about) 18:04 <dragotin> see two mails on project 18:04 @<henne> yaloki: thats from last year dude :) 18:04 <dragotin> yaloki: may be 18:04 <yaloki> oh my! 18:04 @<henne> From Sonja Krause-Harder 2006-04-10 07:47:25 MST 18:05 <skh> well. 18:05 @<henne> even the one before hehe 18:05 <skh> at least we don't forget anything 18:05 <dragotin> skh: yes, unfortunately ;) 18:05 @<henne> and we are not afraid of beeing embarrassing 18:05 @<henne> anyway. as no one involved is there... 18:06 @<henne> Bug #223290 18:06 <dragotin> yeah - that one is WIP 18:06 @<henne> cwh gave an update in the AI 18:06 <dragotin> still 18:06 <dragotin> did not see that yet 18:06 @<henne> sure but at least its moving :) 18:06 @<henne> I'd call the current state as 'working'. 18:06 <dragotin> oh yes, I have that on my radar 18:07 @<henne> last commment from christopher 18:07 @<henne> you cant give any ETA on that right? 18:07 @<henne> dragotin? 18:07 <dragotin> not really, because I think we will have some political discussions on that 18:08 <dragotin> as soon as we really come along with it :( 18:08 @<henne> alright 18:08 <dragotin> oh yeah and some security considerations are still to make 18:08 @<henne> Bug #238355 18:08 <dragotin> also fun 18:09 @<henne> no update here. localhorst is on his trip to SCALE 18:09 @<henne> darix do you know anything about the search problems? 18:09 <darix> no 18:09 @<henne> hmkay 18:09 @<henne> next one then 18:09 @<henne> Bug #343444 18:09 <darix> martin and is&t were on it 18:10 <darix> back to the code. 18:10 @<henne> dragotin: what about that one? :) 18:10 <dragotin> never heard about that 18:10 @<henne> well read your emails dude its assigned to you 18:11 @<henne> caught 18:11 <dragotin> yes. 18:11 <dragotin> hmm 18:11 <dragotin> ok, Asche on my haupt 18:11 <dragotin> sorry, not yet on my radar 18:11 @<henne> okay 18:11 @<henne> no change then 18:12 @<henne> Bug #352722 18:12 @<henne> skh: any news on that front? :) 18:12 <skh> not really 18:12 <skh> uberChick, Katy, are you there? 18:13 <skh> I tried to reach her, but no reaction so far. to be honest I don't think 3 interested people are enough critical mass to start something 18:13 <skh> but leave the bug assigned to me please 18:13 @<henne> i second that 18:13 @<henne> k 18:13 @<henne> then the last one 18:13 @<henne> Bug 18:13 <skh> #opensuse-women exists, if Katy doesn't turn up I can announce it 18:13 @<henne> Bug #293726 18:13 @<henne> that one is also unchanged 18:14 <yaloki> skh: cool, apokryphos, got that for weekly news ? ;) 18:14 <apokryphos> cool 18:14 <apokryphos> yaloki: yes, I'll mention it next week 18:14 <skh> erm. 18:14 <skh> wait 18:14 @<henne> wait until its announced guys? :) 18:15 <yaloki> "if Katy doesn't turn up I can announce it" 18:15 <skh> when you mention it in news, the channel is dead by hormones if katy is not awake 18:15 <skh> and if she is, she'll have a lot of fun ;-) 18:15 <yaloki> skh: what would you suggest, keep it under the radar ? too late now, it's in the transcript ;) 18:15 <skh> so please keep it down for now 18:16 <skh> yaloki: for a few weeks yes please 18:16 <yaloki> ok 18:16 @<henne> thats it for action items then 18:16 <yaloki> apokryphos: ok? ;D 18:17 <apokryphos> noted 18:17 @<henne> second topic. introduction of joe 18:17 @<henne> jbrockmeier: your turn :) 18:17 * dragotin whistles hey joe... 18:17 <jbrockmeier> Hi all 18:18 <jbrockmeier> So, I'm the new guy 18:18 <jbrockmeier> I officially started last Friday as openSUSE Community Manager 18:18 <jbrockmeier> announced on Monday, I think anyone who's in this channel probably knows that already :-) 18:18 <apokryphos> woo 18:18 <jbrockmeier> I'm really looking forward to working with everyone, as I've said elsewhere 18:19 <hype> wee 18:19 <jbrockmeier> I think the openSUSE project is awesome, technically, and some of the biggest problems we face are getting the word out 18:19 <jbrockmeier> and just attracting new users. 18:19 <jbrockmeier> I'll be at SCALE this weekend and at FOSDEM at the end of February 18:19 <jbrockmeier> also in Nuremberg to meet with openSUSE developers the week of the 18th 18:20 <jbrockmeier> and traveling a lot in general to work with folks who are connected with openSUSE and to spread the word 18:20 <Beineri> jbrockmeier: do you intend to travel to space? :-) 18:20 <jbrockmeier> please feel free to email me or IM me if you have thoughts about what I can do to help, what the project needs, etc. 18:20 <jbrockmeier> Ha! 18:20 <madferret> like a reverend 18:20 <jbrockmeier> Beineri: I've tried to make the "compete with Ubuntu" argument for a $20m trip to space, but it wasn't approved... ;-) 18:20 * kl_eisbaer marks the 18th on his calendar :-) 18:21 <jbrockmeier> anyway -- my best email address is zonker@opensuse 18:21 <jbrockmeier> and I'm on IM a lot as xonker@gmail 18:21 <jbrockmeier> and I will try to be on IRC here as much as possible. 18:21 <jbrockmeier> Thanks to everyone for the warm reception I've gotten so far 18:21 <dirk> xonker or zonker@gmail ? 18:21 <jbrockmeier> dirk: xonker 18:21 <dirk> k 18:21 <jbrockmeier> someone already had zonker, unfortunately. 18:21 <dragotin> jbrockmeier: how much technical background do you have? Would you call yourself a hacker for example? 18:22 <jbrockmeier> that's all I have for now, please watch zonker.opensuse.org too! 18:22 <jbrockmeier> dragotin: I'm not a developer, but I have worked as a sys admin 18:22 <jbrockmeier> dragotin: I'd say I'm relatively technical. 18:22 <jbrockmeier> dragotin: I've been using Linux since 1996 18:22 <skh> jbrockmeier: what desktop are you using? ;-) 18:22 <dragotin> cool :) 18:22 <[daemon]> KDE! 18:22 <jbrockmeier> skh: right now, I'm using KDE 18:22 <jbrockmeier> I also switch between KDE, GNOME, and Xfce 18:23 <jbrockmeier> skh: I'd like to try e17 if we could get packages for 11.0... 18:23 <jbrockmeier> skh: think I should post a screenshot on zonker.opensuse.org? 18:23 <skh> jbrockmeier: sure 18:23 <apokryphos> jbrockmeier: a truly sacred and holy question in openSUSE 18:24 <sPiN> that was a pretty diplimatic answer.. 18:24 <decriptor> jbrockmeier: which editor, vi or emacs :) 18:24 <yaloki> heh 18:24 <jbrockmeier> apokryphos: I'm getting that :-) 18:24 <coolo> jbrockmeier: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/X11:/Enlightenment/SUSE_Factory/ 18:24 <jbrockmeier> decriptor: no diplomacy here 18:24 <jbrockmeier> Vim 18:24 <Beineri> hold some questions back for People of openSUSE interview ;-) 18:24 <yaloki> right 18:24 <decriptor> jbrockmeier: then you're ok in my books :) 18:25 <decriptor> not that I matter :) 18:25 <yaloki> jbrockmeier: welcome aboard, and looking forward to getting stuff done^W^W^Whave fun with you 18:25 <jbrockmeier> decriptor: http://www.dissociatedpress.net/vim-resources/ 18:25 <Beineri> jbrockmeier: did you already package / try the build service? :-) 18:25 <jbrockmeier> yaloki: thank you 18:25 <dirk> Beineri: the interview is within the first month of his new job? 18:25 <cgoncalves> Beineri: don't know if jbrockmeier will accept *another* interview request 18:25 <jbrockmeier> Beineri: not yet. very soon, though. 18:25 <yaloki> heh 18:25 <jbrockmeier> cgoncalves: of course I would 18:26 <yaloki> shall we move on to the next topic ? 18:26 <jbrockmeier> yaloki: ok by me :-) 18:26 @<henne> okay then 18:26 @<henne> welcome jbrockmeier 18:26 @<henne> third topic 18:26 @<henne> Discussing the Code of Conduct 18:27 <dragotin> i like to second cornelius last message 18:27 <federico1> ok 18:27 <federico1> hi, everyone 18:27 <dragotin> we were discussing long about all these problems when we worked on the Guiding Princ. 18:27 <federico1> I guess most people already saw the announcement for the Code of Conduct on the opensuse-project list, and in the wik ias well 18:28 <federico1> http://en.opensuse.org/Code_of_Conduct 18:28 * benJIman thirds cornelius's last message. 18:28 <apokryphos> cool, we should make time to discuss it after 18:28 <madferret> wheres the code of honor too 18:29 @<henne> okay i think the real question is: what needs to be changed there 18:29 <federico1> first, I'll acknowledge that the announcement was premature, and I totally forgot about moderators (shame on me) 18:30 <dragotin> where? In the community or in the coc proposal? 18:30 <federico1> now, to address Cornelius's mail (just read it this morning): 18:30 <madferret> federico1, not to mentio you accused problems on ir at least 3 times, and never addressed the ops 18:30 <madferret> irc* 18:30 <tacit> Introducing new/returing visitors of the support channels to this code of condiuct would help. I feel that there is a constant stream of users not willing to adopt. 18:31 <federico1> madferret: how can we make it easier to know who the ops are? or the moderators for a list / etc? 18:31 <Beineri> !ops 18:31 <SUSEhelp> jervine daphoenix benjiman yaloki spin phalanx nermal tinus [daemon] mmj henne the_dude suit oliver buk sjones darix beineri sarnold 18:31 <madferret> federico1, its very simple /msg chanserv access #chann-name list 18:31 <skh> federico1: just ask 18:32 <madferret> for #suse, for example: 18:32 <madferret> !ops 18:32 <SUSEhelp> jervine daphoenix benjiman yaloki spin phalanx nermal tinus [daemon] mmj henne the_dude suit oliver buk sjones darix beineri sarnold 18:32 <federico1> madferret: hehe, we should make that more visible... I have no idea that chanserv even exists as a service 18:33 <yaloki> myeah.. it's tough though 18:33 <yaloki> we could certainly try to make a more visible page about the IRC channels 18:33 <benJIman> If you want visible ops then can stay +o 18:33 <decriptor> maybe there should be an irc opensuse info wiki page, 18:33 <yaloki> with something along the lines of a code of conduct specifically for IRC 18:33 <yaloki> and something similar for mailing-lists and such 18:33 <yaloki> but then again, it mostly already exists 18:33 <dragotin> right 18:33 <yaloki> no one reads the room topics 18:33 <madferret> yaloki, erm, suse-irc.org/rules.html ? 18:33 <federico1> can we simply keep the channel topics with a link to the relevant info? 18:33 <benJIman> There is a rules page for rc 18:33 <apokryphos> staying +o isn't recommended on Freenode for good reasons 18:34 <benJIman> *irc 18:34 <yaloki> madferret: yeah well en.opensuse.org could be a better place for that 18:34 <federico1> like "whatever topic | channel rules at http://blahblah" 18:34 <yaloki> federico1: people don't read it 18:34 <madferret> federico1, you mean the way it already is in #suse ? 18:34 <decriptor> federico1: part of the problem is probably those that just don't understand irc 18:34 * benJIman thinks that IRC op policy is somewhat offtopic anyway. 18:34 @<henne> right 18:34 <yaloki> yeah, it is 18:34 <federico1> madferret: I mean for all #opensuse-* 18:34 <madferret> you people have great ideas for irc, heh 18:35 <federico1> anyway, let's not get sidetracked on irc 18:35 <federico1> let's go back to the CoC at large 18:35 <yaloki> madferret: let's try to be productive, shall we please ? 18:35 * Beineri wonders why the discussion is about IRC specfically, and not Code of Conduct in general (first) 18:35 <federico1> back to Cornelius's message, which I haven't had a chance to reply to yet 18:35 <madferret> yaloki, but of course 18:35 <dragotin> yes, one question is: Do we need an coc or not? 18:35 <yaloki> Beineri: everyone who's modding somewhere tries to apply the CoC and imply things towards his media so.. yes, also about IRC but not only about IRC 18:35 <yaloki> dragotin: correct 18:36 <federico1> when the guiding principles were announced, some people in #opensuse-gnome mentioned that it was hard to find the "how to behave to each other" part in them 18:36 <benJIman> I don't feel that the "adopted" CoC solves that issue. 18:36 <federico1> so the CoC is just for clarity or quick reference. Sometimes the guiding principles look a bit too much like "the fine print" 18:36 <tacit> The CoC is the community's common values on that topic, put into words. 18:36 <decriptor> part of the problem is you have so many cultures and definitions on 'how to behave to each other' 18:36 <AJaeger> benJIman`: Ignore the "adopted" - consider it a proposal. 18:37 <coolo> federico1: and you think people actually look for "how to behave to each other"? 18:37 <dragotin> people not behaving correctly do not read the CoC anyway 18:37 <tacit> ack, they don't read a lot of thinks. 18:37 <Beineri> federico1: one critique point is that the CoC is as vague about that as the Guiding Principles 18:37 <coolo> federico1: especially those that would not behave as common sense would imply 18:37 <federico1> coolo: I'd certainly hope not - I'd hope that people would assume basic rules of politeness, but that evidently doesn't happen all the time :) 18:37 <coolo> so why do we need two of such general rules? 18:37 @<henne> tacit: thats not really true 18:37 <dragotin> and I think we need no CoC to ban people from channels or lists 18:38 <madferret> coolo, make it three for irc, it already used to have rules.html 18:38 <sPiN> ok it seems to me the problem is not that we need to define a CoC it is that we need to make sure that people can easily find out who to talk to when there is a problem 18:38 <apokryphos> it seems that if we do change them they'll end up being even more similar to the GP 18:38 <tacit> or so it seems to me. 18:38 <coolo> madferret: same for mls and their netiquete 18:38 <sjones> And how about enforcement? Are we going to send a strike team out to forcibly remove openSUSE from a violator's system if they don't behave? Do we shun them as if we were Amish? 18:38 <tacit> dragotin: As in not making it appear random? 18:38 <sPiN> as was just said, the people that are the problem arent going to read the CoC and stop being a prick 18:38 <coolo> sjones: we have a list of user names in yast that opens a "sorry, your're out" during installation :) 18:38 <AJaeger> sjones: We have already banned one person from the mailing lists. 18:39 <yaloki> IMO people who don't behave properly won't read either of them -- but it can be useful as a resource to point people to it and explain why their behaviour is not acceptable 18:39 <coolo> AJaeger: on the name of CoC or on the name of common sense? 18:39 <yaloki> hence havint two isn't going to help 18:39 <yaloki> *having, even 18:39 <yaloki> actually, the CoC is trying to be a concise compilation of the guidelines 18:39 <AJaeger> coolo: Both AFAIR. 18:39 <madferret> AJaeger, its kinda funny that someone saying the word fucktard is a bad person, and someone who sends an email saying that he would sue everyone in opensuse is a very nice person 18:40 <fnmueller> it's a thing for praticallity, as of right now, I am not aware of guidlines on what is a clear violation and how should be reacted to it 18:40 <yaloki> and as such, it introduces a lot of room for misinterpretation, which has actually happened 18:40 <federico1> yaloki: maybe we need a quick way find the right paragraph in the guiding principles, and have the CoC as a more relaxed explanation? 18:40 @<henne> peppz. random people that dont behave are not the problem! 18:40 @<henne> they get kicked, banned, unsubscribed, whatever 18:40 <apokryphos> federico1: we could have a page highlighting the relevant part... 18:40 <yaloki> federico1: I don't think so. We need the police, that's not going to change. Nothing is going to change that. People who don't behave properly can be pointed to the Guidelines. If they keep on trolling, they're banned, it's that simple really. 18:41 <cornelius> maybe it would be good to copy the existing IRC rules to an opensuse page and also cite the guiding principles there. 18:41 @<henne> whats not simple is people you cant ban that easily 18:41 <yaloki> my problem with the CoC is that it is concise and leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation 18:41 @<henne> and there we really need a CoC 18:42 <yaloki> cornelius: that's certainly something we could do IMO 18:42 <apokryphos> cornelius: good idea I think 18:42 <benJIman> The only possible use for code of conduct would be something for those in authority to follow, so in the case that there's a problem with an IRC operator or someone with an openSUSE@ address etc. 18:42 @<henne> benJIman: exactly 18:42 <yaloki> a CoC for mods then ? 18:42 <AJaeger> Just for reference, the guidelines have : "We value... respect for other persons and their contributions, for other opinions and beliefs. We listen to arguments and address problems in a constructive and open way. We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate social discrimination and aim at creating an environment 18:42 <AJaeger> from offense." 18:42 @<henne> yaloki: a CoC for _us_ 18:42 <dragotin> AJaeger: Enough said I think 18:42 @<henne> the opensuse community 18:42 <yaloki> henne: yes that's what I meant 18:42 @<henne> not for $random person that wants help 18:43 <yaloki> henne: you can't really draw that line 18:43 <federico1> we can simply say that the code of conduct *is* embodied in that paragraph, and remove the four points I posted 18:43 <yaloki> henne: actually the guidelines are for us, as we sign them 18:43 <benJIman> But then there's the problem that neither IRC nor the fora are under official project control. 18:43 * yaloki coughs 18:43 @<henne> yaloki: yes but as other stated the GP's are not really big on rules 18:43 <benJIman> So the project can't enforce rules on those with positions of authority there. 18:44 @<henne> benJIman: thats why we need to talk to those persons :) 18:44 <cornelius> I guess it's more an issue of communication than of enforcing rules. 18:44 <apokryphos> benJIman: that's why we need/should-have a unified community 18:44 <cornelius> you always have to talk to people if you want to change their behavior. 18:45 <sPiN> henne can, and as long as hes not the problem I think those issues get handled internally as they have in the past. same goes for ML 18:45 @<henne> cornelius: true. but sometimes you need to say "hey, look you agreed to that and now you are doing something different" 18:45 <dragotin> but for talking no CoC is needed. 18:45 <dirk> henne: is that really helping? 18:46 @<henne> dirk: it would help me making those decisions for everything im involved in yes 18:46 <yaloki> hmhm 18:46 @<henne> otherwise its just me deciding 18:46 <dirk> henne: I think it is more helpful to say "your reply is not CoC because I think that ... is a bad thing to say" rather than saying "you agreed before you would behave, so do now" 18:46 <madferret> henne, dont you already apply good sense for that? 18:47 <yaloki> but again, I think we all agree on having the guidelines -- what is the added value of the CoC compared to the guidelines ? 18:47 <cornelius> henne: I think it's already sufficient to point to something like the opensuse guiding principles or mabye even to other documents like the Ubuntu or GNOME code of conduct and say "Hey, this is what many people consider appropriate behavior" 18:47 @<henne> good sense is not an exact science you know... 18:47 <AJaeger> madferret: Henne is not reading every mail and thread, sometimes you need to give him a pointer so that he can apply common sense. 18:47 <yaloki> henne: neither is the CoC or the guidelines 18:47 <bgerber> Normally I am against CoC but with some on the mail lists having them sign a CoC might help. 18:47 <sPiN> cornelius, combined with the pre-exisiting rules and ML guildlines 18:47 @<henne> yaloki: but its way more exact 18:47 <yaloki> bgerber: isn't it implied 18:47 <cornelius> sPiN: sure 18:48 <federico1> give me a second to make a proposal page 18:48 <benJIman> bgerber: we won't be requiring people to sign a CoC in order to mail the lists or join the channel. 18:48 @<henne> cornelius: maybe youre right. maybe the GPs are enough... 18:48 <yaloki> henne: yes but isn't the guidelines document sufficient ? 18:48 <federico1> benJIman: it could be in our terms of service... 18:48 <bgerber> I agree but after 1st offence maybe they need to sign to stay on them. 18:48 <yaloki> bgerber: too difficult to monitor and enforce from a technical POV 18:49 <yaloki> folks, let's try to focus please: 1) do we need the CoC (we already have the guidelines), 2) if so, what should be changed? 18:49 <madferret> we will have local rules, term of service, guiding principles and code of conduct 18:49 <madferret> talk about good bureaucracy 18:49 <dragotin> conclusion? Continue discussion @project? 18:49 <yaloki> indeed 18:50 <apokryphos> dragotin: on there we'll only say "talk about it in the meeting" ;-) 18:50 <dragotin> I know :) 18:50 <yaloki> if there isn't a very good reason for having yet another document, we shouldn't have it 18:50 <yaloki> the less, the better 18:50 <dirk> yaloki: shouldn't 1) be answered by federico1 and 2) by the community? :) 18:50 <apokryphos> I would say having an extra "CoC" name might add confusion or duplication, but if we need to, it just highlight the relevant part in the GP 18:50 <decriptor> I don't think a document will change people 18:50 <yaloki> dirk: both by the community 18:50 <coolo> may I ask - is there anyone in favor of a CoC in addition to the guidelines beside federico1 ? 18:51 <coolo> not that I want a vote, just that I hear very little pros 18:51 <dirk> yaloki: why should the community say why whe need a CoC if noone of the community suggested to have a CoC? 18:51 * henne is kind of for it 18:51 <madferret> edit guidelines to include points of CoC and keep the number of docs at one? 18:51 @<henne> not as addition and not as strict as it is now 18:51 <yaloki> dirk: it's a proposal to have a CoC 18:52 <yaloki> madferret: +1 18:52 <dragotin> maybe we could have an "explanation page" to the GP? 18:52 <yaloki> have the CoC as a summary in the guidelines ? 18:52 <benJIman> You can't edit the guidelines without requiring everyone to resign it. 18:52 <apokryphos> I don't think the GP lacks the relevant points... 18:52 <yaloki> benJIman: except if it's a summary 18:52 <dragotin> that gives some details what we mean by it? 18:52 <benJIman> Preamble is fine. 18:52 <yaloki> the CoC is supposed to be a shorter version of the guidelines anyway 18:53 <yaloki> jbrockmeier: your opinion ? 18:53 <yaloki> hahaaa ;) 18:53 <bgerber> maybe an addendum to the GP 18:54 <jbrockmeier> yaloki: I like the summary idea. 18:54 * yaloki likes trick questions ^^ 18:54 <jbrockmeier> yaloki: I just want to be sure that we have something that can be applied fairly. 18:54 <federico1> can people please take a look at this proposal: 18:54 <federico1> http://en.opensuse.org/Talk:Code_of_Conduct 18:54 <federico1> is that enough? I think we basically need an easy way to point people to the right place in the Guiding Principles 18:54 <jbrockmeier> federico1: nice 18:55 <bgerber> The making it a summary/addendum to the GP I think would be good. 18:55 <yaloki> federico1: 100% ACK for me, although IMHO the guiding principles are a CoC too 18:55 <apokryphos> federico1: +1 18:55 <jbrockmeier> federico1: yes, +1 18:55 <apokryphos> yaloki: what's wrong? 18:55 * henne wants the examples back :) 18:55 <federico1> yaloki: yes, they are, but they also mix in goals, ideals, etc :) 18:55 <hype> federico1: +1 18:55 <yaloki> maybe add specific links to the rules that specifically apply to each channel (irc, ...) 18:55 <sPiN> i agree with yaloki 18:55 <federico1> yaloki: aaah, yes 18:55 <yaloki> because there definitely are specifics 18:55 <Beineri> add a list of moderators for the different 'channels' 18:55 <federico1> yaloki: that's where I'd love people's help, since I don't know the whole wiki :) 18:56 <yaloki> Beineri: not a bad idea 18:56 <dirk> federico1: why do you say "does not have an explicit code of conduct, however .." 18:56 <sPiN> Beineri, we should work on that ourselves some 18:56 <dirk> federico1: I think it would be better to say "our code of conduct are the guiding principles, which say this: .." 18:56 <yaloki> dirk: +1 18:56 @<henne> Beineri: rather add the means to contact mod's instead of a list you have to maintain 18:56 <federico1> dirk: good idea, let me change it... 18:56 <sPiN> Beineri we dont have a very even ops list from # to # 18:56 <jbrockmeier> but I also think we should move this discussion to the mailing list and try to tackle the rest of the agenda. 18:57 <decriptor> this needs to be shown by moderators(NOT inferring anything), and pushed down from there 18:57 @<henne> okay so as everybody seems to agree on the new proposal 18:57 <dragotin> jbrockmeier: +1 18:57 @<henne> lets discuss the details opensuse-project 18:57 <yaloki> yes, and give people who aren't attending the IRC meeting a chance to give their feedback 18:57 @<henne> federico1: please either open another thread or hijack the old one :) 18:57 <dirk> federico1: open new thread 18:57 <yaloki> there's still a point raised by cornelius though 18:57 <federico1> dirk: ok, reload 18:58 <yaloki> discuss here and now or on the list ? 18:58 @<henne> cornelius: fine with you? 18:58 <Beineri> sPiN: then add how to ask chanserv for the list of #foo :-) 18:58 <cornelius> henne: I'm actually fine with federico's proposal. 18:58 <dirk> yaloki: which one? that it is good enough to point to other project's CoC? 18:59 <cornelius> the new page in the wiki i mean. 18:59 <yaloki> no, I meant cornelius' statement that membership through email addresses is a bad thing 18:59 <coolo> federico1: looks good 18:59 <federico1> excellent, thanks, guys 18:59 <federico1> so, one final thing: 18:59 <yaloki> indeed 18:59 <cornelius> we can work out missing details on the mailing list. 18:59 <apokryphos> sounds good :) 18:59 <federico1> * I'll move the Talk page over to the main page, is that ok? i.e. I'll remove the old content and replace it with this new one 18:59 <yaloki> federico1: ok 18:59 <apokryphos> yup 18:59 <federico1> cool, one sec 19:00 <Beineri> federico1: with or without "still under discussion" label? :-) 19:00 @<henne> okay then the third topic 19:00 @<henne> Status Questions 19:00 @<henne> you can find the status mails linked from the meeting page 19:00 @<henne> are there any questions regarding those? 19:01 <Beineri> he, they are really status mail*S* :-) 19:01 * Beineri praises coolo 19:01 <apokryphos> the board had a meeting last Monday -- minutes for the meeting should be pending. An issue of the idea of the board was raised on the list. Do we have time to go over that now? 19:01 @<henne> apokryphos: what exactly do you mean? 19:02 <apokryphos> henne: I think people were worried about the role of the board (tied to the CoC) rule, in the CoC thread 19:02 <yaloki> well I hope this has been clarified now 19:02 <federico1> ok, thanks everyone :) 19:03 @<henne> yaloki: not entirely for me :) 19:03 <apokryphos> henne: iirc you were one of them ;) 19:03 <yaloki> henne: ok, then please raise your concerns (here or on list) 19:03 @<henne> im asking myself what happend to the first and most important task of this board 19:04 <AJaeger> "Act as a central point of contact"? 19:04 @<henne> no 19:04 @<henne> develop a modus operandi for future boards 19:04 @<henne> and how to put them in place 19:04 @<henne> etc 19:04 <apokryphos> it's on the agenda for next week's discussion in fact 19:05 <dragotin> the first board was 'only' expected to prepare elections IMO 19:05 @<henne> yes 19:05 @<henne> well at least by me 19:05 @<henne> dont know about the general expectations 19:05 <apokryphos> that was surely not what I was ever told, but ok ;) 19:05 <AJaeger> dragotin: Not how I understood it. 19:05 <jbrockmeier> Hey all, I have to cut out for another committment. Sorry! I will be reading the log when I get back. 19:05 <apokryphos> see you Joe 19:05 <madferret> elections? oh mine 19:05 <Beineri> was the first board appointed for a certain period (one year?)? 19:05 <yaloki> Beineri: that's my understanding 19:06 <apokryphos> Beineri: Summer time-ish 19:06 <cornelius> Well, I think it's good that the board picks up what the board is meant to do, also in the long-term 19:06 <yaloki> we have been appointed for a fixed period of time 19:06 <Beineri> yaloki: any reference for everyone? :-) 19:06 <yaloki> one of the major tasks is to prepare elections and a process for upcoming boards 19:06 <yaloki> but we shouldn't let all the other tasks just hand until summer should we ? 19:06 * yaloki is off now, have to run, laterz! 19:06 @<henne> yeah and im wondering whats happening there :) 19:07 @<henne> all i personaly want are status updates 19:07 <bgerber> It would be nice to have a status posted to the project ml 19:07 <coolo> henne: there is none, we hardly have fully staffed meetings due to holidays and sudden babies :) 19:07 @<henne> hmkay 19:07 <bgerber> maybe once a month 19:08 <michl19> maybe after each meeting 19:08 <michl19> even if it's pretty short 19:08 @<henne> yeah 19:08 <apokryphos> yes, we really should do that 19:08 <coolo> bgerber: AJaeger sent out minutes if there was something discussed :) 19:08 <AJaeger> bgerber: We will send status updates from our meetings - and I didn't manage to type the last one so far :-( 19:08 <michl19> even without discussion - short status update 19:08 @<henne> and if there was nothing discussed please send out minutes anyway 19:08 @<henne> stating that 19:08 <AJaeger> coolo: Correct, that's what I did several times already. 19:08 <AJaeger> henne: Ok, will do. 19:09 <bgerber> thanks 19:09 <AJaeger> I even send an email on monday asking whether there's anything we should discuss - feel free to remind us of anything we should take care of. 19:10 <AJaeger> I plan to send that email always before a meeting - that way you can kick me afterwards as well about a status :-) 19:10 * henne fears that AJaeger's crontab will take all the space on our homesrv 19:10 <apokryphos> sorry to extend the time, but I think a lot of people will have concerns about no non-OSS software anymore on the DVD :( 19:11 @<henne> okay so thats for the board status mails 19:11 @<henne> anything else 19:11 @<henne> ah apokryphos :) 19:11 <apokryphos> (that's re: distribution status update) 19:11 <apokryphos> I mean, my dad's gonna be pretty mad at me ;) 19:11 <michl19> that's a tough one 19:11 @<henne> apokryphos: thats the dvd5 19:11 <apokryphos> yup 19:12 <michl19> on the one hand it's pro open source 19:12 @<henne> okay just making sure you got that ;) 19:12 <bgerber> I think it should be on the second DVD. 19:12 <michl19> on the other agains usability 19:12 <michl19> and offered easily via downlaod 19:12 <apokryphos> michl19: thing is, we haven't exactly had any problems from OSS-fanatics about having it, or have we? 19:12 <AJaeger> bgerber: which second DVD? 19:12 <coolo> apokryphos: wouldn't your dad have a problem with having an additional CD? 19:12 <bgerber> for example alpine/pine is on the Non-OSS stuff 19:13 <apokryphos> it's always been one of the most positive things from most people -- the CDs were always a fully OSS option 19:13 <coolo> bgerber: nah, pine is dropped and alpine is oss 19:13 <apokryphos> coolo: extra media is a bit of a pain tbh 19:13 <michl19> the point is, that with proprietary stuff on the DVD we have this ugly EULA saying, it's not allowed to redistribute 19:13 <Beineri> bgerber: why is alpine non-oss? 19:13 <bgerber> The boxed set had a second DVD so we do not have to download everything 19:13 @<henne> michl19: and who is complaining about that? 19:13 <AJaeger> And the EULA is exactly the thing, we like to get rid of it to have a nice shiny license. 19:13 <coolo> Beineri: he didn't say that, he said it's on non-oss and that was simply an oversight with 10.3 19:13 <apokryphos> michl19: has anyone complained about it? Seems that it's been working so well so far... 19:14 <bgerber> pine was moved to the non-oss. I did not know the state of alpine 19:14 <michl19> I receive emails complaining about that 19:14 <coolo> michl19: would it help if apokryphos sends you a mail complaining about alpha2? :) 19:14 <apokryphos> what's their names and where do they live ;) 19:15 <michl19> or the debian guy at last FOSDEM made fun about, telling their people, with Debian redistribution is allowed 19:15 <Beineri> so there will be a non-oss medium/DVD-9 - that means there will be a box for 11.0? :-) 19:15 <apokryphos> we didn't need to have it on the back of the DVD ;-) 19:15 <coolo> michl19: then we'll make fun of debian and say with openSUSE youtube.com works? 19:15 @<henne> whats youtube? 8) 19:16 <apokryphos> I can't help but think that these guys are generally in a very silent minority 19:16 @<henne> a very unquiet you mean 19:16 <apokryphos> henne: you hear complaints about it a lot? 19:16 <bwalle> pine was obsoleted by alpine 19:17 <bgerber> Having it only in the boxed set would add value to it. 19:17 @<henne> apokryphos: over the years yes 19:17 <apokryphos> if it's only over that big a timescale then should we care about those rare cases? :/ 19:17 <bgerber> I mean all the non-oss stuff. 19:17 @<henne> bgerber: hey you should become a SUSE product manager. addign value to something by leaving it out of something else 19:18 <apokryphos> seems to me like 99.5% o users prefer it this way, and I really don't see any blazing abuse being thrown at us about it 19:18 @<henne> our secial way to add value to something 8) 19:18 <dirk> apokryphos: well, clearly we have decided on the worst of both worlds (no decent codecs by default, but also not pure OSS) 19:18 @<henne> special* 19:18 <dirk> apokryphos: anything that improves that is probably better :) 19:18 <apokryphos> dirk: so both camps can dislike us properly :P 19:18 <apokryphos> I'd say: why not just stick with the "OSS" CD for thoes people who wish to complain, and keep the DVD the same? 19:18 <coolo> bgerber: if it's freely downloadable, it's no value 19:19 @<henne> so is there any way to make the extra media easier? 19:19 <decriptor> just make it a repo you can add 19:19 <dirk> we could do a OSS-DVD and a full-DVD for 11.0 and compare the download numbers? 19:19 <decriptor> during install, do you want to add 'extra media repo' 19:19 <apokryphos> such a bigger hassle downloading 2 sets of media, that was always the great thing about the dvd :( 19:19 <coolo> henne: as easy as one medium? no way 19:19 <bgerber> +1 19:20 <federico1> decriptor: +1 19:20 <apokryphos> we already have that on the CDs for 10.3 19:20 <Beineri> 11.0 will differ though, adding of repos only after installation afaik 19:20 <decriptor> to be honest (also lucky with bandwidth, so my opinion might be void), I'd perfer to have a basic CD and then repos 19:20 @<henne> so why not for the dvd? 19:20 <apokryphos> problem is that it makes installs like 2 hours long and people complain. We could convey what's going on better 19:21 <coolo> decriptor: you can do a network install to begin with 19:21 <decriptor> I know 19:21 <decriptor> coolo: the repos are slower than my connection :( but having a base install and then repos is nice 19:21 <bgerber> I download the entire ftp tree and also buy the boxed set for conveince 19:21 <decriptor> that's almost how I do it now 19:21 <apokryphos> if we could make it clearer that packages are being downloaded from the web for non-OSS stuff then it'd be nicer 19:21 <coolo> henne: it doesn't matter if you download flash after installation or during installation 19:22 <decriptor> plus I don't ahve to worry about network mess ups for my base 19:22 <coolo> henne: the only bothered are those that download the DVD+non-oss CD at a friend to install offline 19:22 <apokryphos> I don't want to complain about it for too long ;-). But I do feel that the main complainers will come after the final release 19:22 <michl19> agreed 19:22 * henne fears that apokryphos is right 19:22 <coolo> apokryphos: that what'd like to do 19:22 <michl19> the general question is, do we want to go the OSS way or a mixed way? 19:22 <coolo> apokryphos: they always come, but it works for so many other distros 19:23 <decriptor> there are those that will complain because it isn't like distro x that they are used to 19:23 <coolo> it's just that SUSE users will be used to just drop in the DVD offline and have a working flash - ok, flash is pointless offline :) 19:23 <decriptor> then there are those that just like to complain 19:23 <decriptor> coolo: that's a funny thought/point 19:23 <coolo> michl19: it all depends on the non-oss network drivers, actually 19:23 <apokryphos> michl19: if we remain the mixed way, we're still the OSS way with regard to the CDs -- no-one is forced into downloading non-essential non-OSS stuff 19:24 <coolo> we need to have them in. And if including them means same EULA, then we can just as well include textmaker 19:24 <decriptor> why don't we put the non OSS stuff on there and they have to check a box to open it 19:24 <dirk> coolo: you do want acroread even if you're a pure offline user though 19:24 @<henne> michl19: is there a way to change the EULA? 19:24 <coolo> decriptor: because the EULA is for the medium 19:24 @<henne> instead of working around it 19:24 <coolo> dirk: I don't, no :) 19:24 <michl19> henne: for whom to change? 19:24 <coolo> dirk: actually I get all my pdfs online 19:24 <michl19> we can 19:24 <dirk> what was the result of the "use of non-OSS software" survey that was done a few weeks ago? 19:24 <decriptor> coolo: so even if they don't use it they still have to check the EULA? 19:25 <dirk> or rather s,weeks,months,? 19:25 @<henne> michl19: yes. so see if we can "fix" the points that lead it to saying "you cant redistribute" 19:25 <michl19> dirk: most non-oss stuff is not used much 19:25 <michl19> the points e.g. are acroread, flashplayer etc. 19:25 <coolo> decriptor: yes, you can't copy the medium - no matter if _you_ don't use the software 19:25 <michl19> so not easy to change 19:26 <decriptor> coolo: that sucks, screw non OSS :) 19:26 <apokryphos> and now, mp3 19:26 <hype> dont forget opera :P 19:26 <bgerber> That is why I like the download or Boxed set idea. 19:26 <decriptor> I'm still for the repo idea, 19:26 <apokryphos> http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/c/ce/SurveySummary_proprietary_software_openSUSE_06122007.pdf 19:26 <coolo> apokryphos: yeah, fluendo is something you want offline 19:26 <dirk> apokryphos: thanks 19:26 <coolo> better example than flash 19:26 <decriptor> opera? 19:27 <apokryphos> decriptor: most users who have opera probably know how to get it at least 19:27 <hype> apokryphos: yes of coz 19:27 <decriptor> sure, didn't state that question well, ignore 19:28 @<henne> okay what now? 19:28 <dirk> flash is a bad example because it is much harder to install it via suse mechanisms (if not installed by default) than by the default advertised download mechanisms (plugin downloader in firefox) 19:28 <bgerber> I really like having a repo to get this stuff. I makes it easier at friends and family to get the stuff. 19:28 @<henne> bgerber: no one wants to take that away 19:28 <apokryphos> bgerber: the repo will remain for sure, it's just a question of the DVD media 19:28 <bwalle> bgerber: and updating stuff! 19:29 <bgerber> I want it only in the boxed set media. 19:29 <benJIman> dirk: konqueror does it properly I believe. 19:29 <dirk> michl19: so the question about "OSS or not?" is really in the end just "acroread or not?", because java is icedtea now 19:29 <dirk> so I vote to get rid of acroread ;) 19:29 <michl19> flashplayer and agfafonts 19:29 <coolo> dirk: and fluedo-mp3 19:30 <michl19> dirk: +1 19:30 <apokryphos> dirk: not at all: flash, mp3 and java still 19:30 <coolo> apokryphos: there is hope for java :) 19:30 <dirk> regarding flash, see comment above (browser downloader) 19:30 <benJIman> iced-tea 19:30 <dirk> java is solved with icedtea (or will be) 19:30 <apokryphos> does it work in firefox as well? 19:30 <bwalle> is iced-tea a full replacement for the current Sun Java? 19:30 <michl19> and agfaonts migth be solved through liberty fonts 19:30 <bwalle> including Webstart and browser plugin? 19:30 <apokryphos> (flash) 19:30 <benJIman> bwalle: For non graphical stuff only. 19:30 <benJIman> Which is most java. 19:31 <dirk> coolo: yeah, but who says that we have to use fluendo for mp3.. 19:31 <apokryphos> since we do have the 1-click-installs for amarok/banshee... 19:31 <coolo> dirk: well, me :) 19:31 <bwalle> benJIman: but that's no replacement IMO, especially not for a desktop distribution 19:31 <apokryphos> dirk: it seems like the only legal mp3 codec provider 19:31 <coolo> michl19: liberty fonts are no replacmeent for agfafonts. but most users won't notice 19:32 <dirk> apokryphos: well, but thats different 19:32 <decriptor> apokryphos: what's in banshee now? 19:32 <bwalle> and acroread is still needed for forms 19:32 <benJIman> bwalle: Well it's the font rendering that is the problem, so it likely won't be long. 19:32 <decriptor> its not fluendo is it 19:32 <bwalle> e.g. when I buy stamps at the "Deutsche Post" 19:32 <dirk> apokryphos: the fluendo plugin is still OSS (BSD licensed), it just has a patent license which makes it non-redistributable 19:32 <apokryphos> decriptor: I think bwalle worked on getting 1-click-install integrated? 19:32 <bwalle> I have the choice between Java and Acroread... 19:32 <benJIman> bwalle: Java is not a blocker for redistribution anyway. 19:33 @<henne> well looks like this needs way more discussion 19:33 <benJIman> The non-free distributor licence already allowed redistribution. 19:33 <michl19> benJIman`: correct 19:34 <bwalle> apokryphos: I don't have anything to do with one click install ;) 19:34 <apokryphos> whoops, I mean abock_ sorry 19:34 @<henne> bwalle: except the complaining about it part :P 19:34 @<henne> okay so this needs more thinking 19:34 <apokryphos> yes 19:34 @<henne> i guess thats an AI for michl19 and coolo 19:35 <bwalle> henne: but that was on internal lists I think :D 19:35 <apokryphos> we could start a discussion on -project if it would help? 19:35 <benJIman> Maybe you could complain in public instead. 19:35 <coolo> henne: no, we did our thinking :) 19:35 <coolo> henne: and it got no feedback when announced on my status - beside apokryphos bringing it up here 19:35 @<henne> coolo: that was yesterday 19:36 <apokryphos> coolo: people don't read status updates properly, and that was on -factory :P 19:36 <michl19> let them test alpha 2 and we'll receive more feedback 19:36 <coolo> ok 19:36 <apokryphos> alrighty 19:36 @<henne> okay 19:36 <coolo> michl19: _if_ they amarok starting at all on alpha2 :) 19:36 @<henne> any other questions regarding the status mails? :) 19:36 <coolo> EVERBMISSIN 19:37 @<henne> then the next topic which is Q&A 19:37 <decriptor> maybe off topic, but how does nokia buying trolltech affect kde? 19:37 @<henne> benJIman: you had some converns about the FOSDEM schedule 19:37 <Beineri> decriptor: time will tell 19:37 <benJIman> Yes. 19:37 @<henne> i guess it does not make sense to talk about that when martin isnt there :-/ 19:37 <fnmueller> I understand everyone here uses the internet heavily, but there are users with low bandwith or even no inet connection and those people have a problem without proprietary software on their install medium 19:38 <dirk> decriptor: I can't think of anything negative that would affect kde 19:38 <dirk> decriptor: see free Qt foundation, see the opensource community letter that was published, see the statements of intent from nokia 19:38 <decriptor> dirk: I was thinking about the QT stuff 19:38 <Beineri> dirk: he didn't ask for negative affects, or? :-) 19:38 <coolo> fnmueller: there will be an addon medium 19:38 @<henne> hey 19:38 <bgerber> fnmueller, that is why we need the boxed set with most everything 19:38 <decriptor> dirk: didn't know that they had done that 19:38 @<henne> this is the openSUSE status meeting 19:38 <dirk> Beineri: well, if there is nothing negative, it can only be positive, right? :) 19:38 @<henne> not $TALKSHOW 19:38 <decriptor> I just knew that motorola jumped ship really fast 19:38 <dirk> henne: sry 19:38 <apokryphos> yeah, let's discuss it after 19:38 <Beineri> dirk: or none 19:38 <Riggwelter> Planet SUSE now has German and Spanish editions 19:39 <dirk> Beineri: no news is good news :) 19:39 <decriptor> henne: soory 19:39 @<henne> Riggwelter: uuuuuuuhhhh 19:39 @<henne> nice 19:39 <apokryphos> Riggwelter: ooo 19:39 <benJIman> henne: Is he even going to be back before fosdem? 19:39 <Riggwelter> they're not very big yet ;) 19:40 <dirk> Riggwelter: how does one submit a german blog entry to be aggregated on the german planetsuse? 19:40 <Riggwelter> dirk: /msg riggwelter :) 19:40 <dirk> Riggwelter: mail you an extra rss feed ? 19:40 <Beineri> Riggwelter: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=en_de&url=http%3A%2F%2Fplanetsuse.org - or what URL? 19:40 <dirk> Beineri: planetssuse.org/de 19:40 <Riggwelter> Beineri: I want a *good* translation ;) 19:40 <dirk> minus typos 19:41 @<henne> benJIman: i dont know for sure. contrary to popular believe im not his mom ;) 19:41 @<henne> michl19: do you know? 19:41 * Riggwelter is forcing a Planet update to include my call for help in translation 19:41 <federico1> who has permission to edit the toplevel wiki page, or the sidebar? 19:41 <michl19> mlasarsch is back on Tuesday 19:41 <michl19> Feb 12 19:41 <benJIman> henne: I just think it might be a bad idea having lots of talks that are likely to overrun with no gaps on sunday afternoon when people are leaving. 19:41 <benJIman> Ok. 19:42 <apokryphos> federico1: Beineri, Frank, Aj... 19:42 <federico1> apokryphos: thanks 19:42 @<henne> benJIman: okay? 19:42 <Beineri> federico1: http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Special%3AListusers&group=sysop 19:42 <benJIman> I'll poke him on tuesday. 19:43 @<henne> okay. any other general questions? 19:43 * cboltz wonders about the difference between planetsuse.org/de and blog.cboltz.de ;-) 19:43 <federico1> Beineri: thanks :) 19:44 @<henne> wohoo that was it then. If you have more, dont hesitate to bring it up on the appropriate mailinglist. 19:44 <federico1> gotta love the Bureaucrats 19:44 @<henne> The next project meeting will be at the 20. of February. Same channel but this time at 12:00 GMT!!! 19:44 @<henne> The next meeting is the GNOME meeting tomorrow at 11:00 GMT in #opensuse-gnome. 19:44 <Riggwelter> cboltz: You 0\/\/n it! 19:44 @<henne> Thank you all for participating. Good night and good luck!