<henne> Welcome to the openSUSE Project Meeting! <henne> This meeting is meant to discuss the latest developments in and around openSUSE. <henne> The agenda for this meeting is: <henne> 1. Old Action Items <henne> 2. Status Questions <henne> 3. Bughandling in released products <henne> 4. Questions & Answers wiki/channel

<henne> First topic. Old Action Items <henne> you can find a list here: http://tinyurl.com/2zgf3w <JosefAssad> moin <henne> if bugzilla works that is... *sigh* <henne> Bug #173961 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 173961 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] openSUSE merchandising" [Normal,Assigned] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=173961 <henne> michl19: any progress here? <notlocalhorst> coolo ordered the first test shirts <henne> so? :) <notlocalhorst> it works .. more or less :-) <Beineri> [x] send pix <notlocalhorst> rlihm maybe knows more <rlihm> he successful ordered the fist test shirt <notlocalhorst> thats what i said ... :-) <rlihm> the status ist: <cboltz> BTW: which shop provider? <rlihm> we had a call yesterday wit Corp. Marketing <notlocalhorst> spreadshirt <michl19> there is progress <rlihm> spreadshirt <michl19> rlihm and coolo set up a shop <henne> rlihm: call about what? :) <michl19> and we are in the process of getting approval on the design by Novell's corporate marketing <henne> okay <henne> please peepz. update the AI's in bugzilla! <henne> can you give an ETA on that approval? <henne> means when do you expect everyone can order a t-shirt? <michl19> I asked them to get approval latest by Dec 10 <henne> okay <henne> Bug #223290 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 223290 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] better wishlist handling using FATE" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=223290 <michl19> you can have a look already at http://openshop.spreadshirt.net/en/DE/Shop <notlocalhorst> btw: why is it called openshop? sounds pretty generic for me <henne> probably coolo preparing his retirement :P <michl19> it will be called something openSUSE <apokryphos> they look great =) <michl19> we just had an issue <michl19> will be solved <notlocalhorst> k <michl19> and the final shop will offer different currencies as well <henne> nice <r0cketman> Long-sleeves? hoodies? <michl19> first: get the shop up an running <michl19> second: extend the offering <michl19> ;-) <r0cketman> Great!  :-D <henne> r0cketman: we already discussed the initial offerings <henne> and those were not part of it :) <henne> okay on to the next AI <henne> Bug #223290 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 223290 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] better wishlist handling using FATE" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=223290 <henne> klaas finaly did a short presentation on fate in the wiki <henne> http://en.opensuse.org/Proposals/openFate <henne> we have to make a decision now on what to use <henne> any proposals where to do this? <JosefAssad> if some devs have had achance to use fate, does it make sense for them to broadcast how they feel about it? <henne> list or in the next meeting? * cboltz votes for the mailinglist <JosefAssad> that is, if https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=223290#c4 is right <couchCoolo> henne: both I'd say :) <bugbot> openSUSE bug 223290 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] better wishlist handling using FATE" [Normal,New] <apokryphos> no mention of how long it would take? <henne> JosefAssad: fate like it is used now has very little to do with what klaas proposed <couchCoolo> first give it a couple of days * JosefAssad nods <henne> JosefAssad: openFATE would be a subset of feature and a completely different frontend <henne> hm okay then first list and final decision in the next meeting <henne> okay? <henne> coolo: will you start that thread? <couchCoolo> henne: klaas did? <couchCoolo> couchCoolo: I would rather wait for everyone having had a chance to read the wiki <henne> no? <couchCoolo> no reason to wait _now_ <couchCoolo> couchCoolo: klaas posted the wiki link to opensuse-project <henne> yes he did but there are other proposals as well :) <henne> wiki and bugzilla as far as i remember <henne> we said when the fate proposal is in we decide which one to use <couchCoolo> ok, but not after two hours after the proposal <henne> 2 weeks for a discussion about that sound good to me <JosefAssad> that wiki page might benefit from a section at the topic like "Five ways this will change your life asa community member" <couchCoolo> JosefAssad: reply on the ml I'd say <henne> couchCoolo: yes. like i said. you start a thread on opensuse-project and we try to make a final decision in the next meeting :) <JosefAssad> will do <cboltz> Can we have a short summary about "using wiki" from the Gnome team (on the list)? <cboltz> It would make comparison easier. <henne> its already in the wiki somewhere <couchCoolo> cboltz: check bug? francis did a proof of concept <cboltz> OK, now I remember ;-) <couchCoolo> ok, next AI? <henne> Bug #229213 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 229213 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] clarify bugzilla usage for packages in build service" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229213 <henne> adrianS? <couchCoolo> federico1: hi! now a majority of the board is there :) <federico1> couchCoolo: hey there! <henne> hm no adrian. ill ping him in the ai <henne> Bug #238350 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 238350 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] unmaintained wikis" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=238350 <federico1> couchCoolo: taking good care of jpr over there? <henne> changed in the ai. some alter boxes are up on the unmaintained ones <henne> info boxes <notlocalhorst> i updated the ai today, only vi is in bad shape <henne> so the only one horrible outdated is vi now right? <notlocalhorst> yes, and there is a banner on the frontpage <henne> okay <couchCoolo> notlocalhorst: use emacs</hahaha> <henne> Bug #238355 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 238355 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] status of cn wiki" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=238355 <notlocalhorst> see updated ai, started working on it <henne> notlocalhorst: you started working on that now? <JosefAssad> does it make sense for the wiki team not to approve localizations unless there's X persons on the team? IS this the right place for such a Q? <notlocalhorst> should be ready next week <henne> Bug #267437 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 267437 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] community comitee, @opensuse.org mail addresses etc." [Normal,Assigned] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=267437 <couchCoolo> JosefAssad: you can't make X large enough without avoiding trouble with X-Y in the future <notlocalhorst> JosefAssad: hmm ... so far we are happy when somebody just make it, but yes sometimes it's not working very well <henne> then only bit open in that one are @opensuse.org addresses right? <henne> well these things happen... <henne> i guess there really is no way to avoid this situation <notlocalhorst> JosefAssad: the maintainer should take care of a team in an ideal world <henne> its just that we need to inform users about it <notlocalhorst> and it works very good in the .nl wiki for example <JosefAssad> notlocalhorst: I'm just thinking sustainability. If one guy who speaks klingon offers to make that localization, it ain't gonna last too long. <JosefAssad> at least until this guy starts reading tolkien <JosefAssad> :) <notlocalhorst> JosefAssad: you never know ... but yes, i could add something to the translation page about fallbacks ... good idea <JosefAssad> My humble opinion is fewer excellent localizations > many possibly weak ones <henne> Action Item notlocalhorst: add something about sustainability to the translation howto <JosefAssad> but that's something for the wiki team, methinks. Sorry, I made this discussion point too long * cboltz is filing the AI <|dl9pf|> klingon ... nice klingon.dw-world.de <coolo> henne: yes. mailing aliases is still open. Next AI? :) <notlocalhorst> cboltz: no, i will do it right now <henne> coolo: well do you know the progress there? <cboltz> OK <henne> again <henne> Bug #267437 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 267437 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] community comitee, @opensuse.org mail addresses etc." [Normal,Assigned] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=267437 <coolo> henne: no, AJ had two days of spot when neither he nor the admin were on vacation <henne> okay <henne> Bug #328611 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 328611 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] Try out wishlist handling / feature tracking in the wiki" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=328611 <henne> this is obviously now a duplicate of Bug #223290 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 223290 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] better wishlist handling using FATE" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=223290 <henne> so the last open one is Bug #339796 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 339796 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "[AI] graphical headline on help.opensuse.org" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=339796 <rlihm> ähm ... <henne> :) <rlihm> I made it for the englisch wiki, but had no time for the other languages. <rlihm> Going to do it in the next days. <henne> wiki? its about help.o.o :) <rlihm> yes ... yes :) ups <rlihm> i mean help.o.o <henne> okay <henne> thats it for AIs <cboltz> the english image is not online yet - can someone do a svn up, please?

<henne> so second topic: Status questions <henne> you can find the individual status mails linked from the meeting page <henne> any questions about those? <notlocalhorst> and linked from news.o.o :-) <henne> no questions? :) <henne> okay <henne> then the third topic

<henne> Bughandling in released products <henne> coolo brought that up in one of his status mails <henne> http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2007-10/msg00400.html <henne> we need to find a solution for bug handling <Beineri> henne: I guess it's more http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2007-11/msg00142.html <henne> no? why? <Beineri> ok, who added this point with what intention? :-) <dirk> henne: refuse new bugreports? ;) * henne did * Beineri thinks update handling is more broken/urgent currently than having all bugs having screened<nowiki> <henne> the amount of bugreports a developer needs to qualify is getting too high <coolo> Beineri: the update testing is public. I just need to write a news article for it <henne> there are some ideas floating around <henne> like bug screening <Beineri> coolo: why me? when I don't even know that it's public? <coolo> Beineri: but e.g. http://download.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/update/10.3-test/ is there for everyone to feel brave <henne> can we stay on topic please? <coolo> Beineri: if I write "I" I mean me - you figure that concept? <Beineri> ah ;-) <JosefAssad> recruit people from the community to screen maybe? Starting with an online intro on how to go about it <dirk> coolo: hmm, even security updates? <henne> so i was interested in different ideas we might come up with <coolo> henne: actually update testing is kind of on topic for bugs handling <coolo> dirk: not the non-public one obviously <dirk> coolo: okay :) <henne> what has that to do with the amount of bugs we get in? <nowiki>* Beineri wondered yesterday if fixing bugs actually makes sense when an online update gets denied when it's fixed. <henne> except that a certain portion of those are update-stack bugs... <coolo> henne: not with the amount. But e.g. without being able to update, it makes little sense to even talk about fixing bugs for released products ;( <dirk> henne: well, essentially all bugs that are in NEW or NEEDINFO state are candidates for screening <dirk> henne: and upstream bugzilla integration (so that I can link reports in other bugzillas) would help a lot <Beineri> likely that relates to "too many updates" in coolo's second status mail * coolo does NEEDINFO screening and it's terribly boring :) <dirk> coolo: well, ever screening is boring <henne> well how about assigning unqualified bugs to some mailinglist? <dirk> if you want to make it interesting, put scoring/rewards/money behind it ;) <coolo> I would WONTFIX all bugs - any objections? <cboltz> Maybe we could use the wizard-like form to enter bugs, like kde.org does. It includes dupe check etc. and might be helpful for bugzilla newbies. <cboltz> But: Please still also offer the "enter bug" form as available today, or I'll heavily protest ;-) <coolo> dirk: there was this page where you could earn 10 cents for a mini job * cboltz knows how to mass-reopen ;-) <apokryphos> dupe check would be pretty useful <coolo> perhaps we can award 10 cents a bug closed :) <dirk> henne: you're loosing the assignee then (assignee is needed for tracking which package it is talking about.. our components are not fine-grained enough) <fm> cboltz: i really hate the bugs.kde,org thing, as it takes quiet some time ... <dirk> henne: I would suggest a NEEDS_SCREENING flag or query <cboltz> fm: I'm thinking about offering it for _newbies_ <coolo> fm: kde.org does it for the same reason suse would need it: too many bug reports from people that do not even take the time to look for duplicates <coolo> and then rely on "the community" to do that for them <JosefAssad> bug screening strikes me as a great way for a relative newbie to start contributing. Along with wiki maintainership. Just saying, maybe this is an opportunity to broaden the contributor base <cboltz> The thing that annoys me on kde.org is that more experienced bugreporters can't use today's form ;-) <henne> dirk: well the assignee cant obviously not know which package we talk about because he dooes not even know if it is a bug or not :) <dirk> henne: ok, different scenario <coolo> cboltz: you can, I only need to grant you edit rights <henne> for screening that is <dirk> henne: I'm talking about where we know that its a bug but don't know which patch upstream fixed it. for example. or why the bug is there at all <coolo> cboltz: without edit rights you only see a dumbed down interface to bugs, both in showing bugs and in creating bugs <dirk> e.g. if foo crashes then we know its foo's fault. just the why and when is unknown <cboltz> coolo: Good to know, I'll /msg you my account name <coolo> unfortunately bugzilla.novell.com is out of our control and I'm afraid they might not be interested in implementing such a kind of wizard <coolo> cboltz: I'll do it for 100 closes :) <cboltz> sorry, I can't promise this ;-) <henne> coolo: we can try to convince them. we succeeded with other stuff <henne> so would something like the kde wizard be ragarded as option? <fm> i think it would help to have the email adresses in the spec (rpm --changelog) match with the bugzilla accounts. I always use the people search window ... <coolo> henne: I'm just wondering if duplicates are our problem. I would say it's not <coolo> henne: but e.g. a wizard that doesn't let you enter a yast bug without yast logs would be great <coolo> but if the edit_bug.cgi is still available, there might be little point ;( <henne> yeah. and a wizard that helps you to qualify your bug with if a... then... <coolo> fm: s,suse.de,novell.com and you're done with 99% <henne> coolo: most of these bugs come in from people that got pointed to bugzilla.novell.com <fm> i have been looking through suspend reports for instance and there are tons with unresponsive reporters ... I think closing a bug after one month with needinfo would be an option <henne> if they just get pointed to bugs.opensuse.org... <coolo> fm: yes, my query for NEEDINFO bugs with 21 days of inactivity contains 119 bugs... ;( <coolo> fm: any help with that and other cleanup tasks are welcome <henne> fm: yes thats an easy fix. the problem is more with stuff where you have to spend hours to reproduce <coolo> but I have high hopes on the winter season. Once cboltz got his ice wine in... :) <notlocalhorst> hehe <henne> okay who would be willling to drive that proposal? <henne> that wizard thing i mean <coolo> henne: I volunteer Klaas :) <henne> can you poke him? :) <fm> coolo: i think it would be possible to post bugs that are difficult to reproduce on i.e opensuse-factory (for factory) and ask people to help. <coolo> fm: yes, but once you hit 20 bugs a week, opensuse-factory will see a mass escape ;( <henne> okay then lets just pass an AI around <cboltz> regarding the wizard: I can do a draft about "when reporting a bug in xxxxx, please do yyyy" for the most important categories - at least the things I know. Help from klaas on the details would be welcome, through <coolo> fm: but look at e.g. bug 328348 - completely pointless ;( <bugbot> openSUSE bug 328348 in openSUSE 10.3 (Translations) "Dutch translation mistakes (The Netherlands)" [Normal,Needinfo] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=328348 <henne> Action Item klaas: investigate the possiblility to have some wizard in front of bugzilla to qualify bugreports <coolo> cboltz: if we leave out the duplicate checking, it's pretty possible to have it another web page that gives you a check list and then prefills edit_bug.cgi <fm> one mail with 10 bugs a week would be nice. and i would happily reproduce bugs with software i use. right now i am reading opensuse-bugs and try to reproduce here and there ... <coolo> then we can maintain it openly, our bugzilla is not ;( <cboltz> coolo: good idea <coolo> cboltz: and even for duplicate checking, we can use the xml interface of bugzilla. There the team will help no matter what <henne> coolo: maybe its even possible to do this totaly seperated. the login data we have <coolo> henne: ok. We just need to find a volunteer who's name is not darix :) <apokryphos> not sure if it's worth the effort for just the duplicates. How much time is wasted marking bug x as duplicate of y? <coolo> apokryphos: in betas? quite some <henne> coolo: yeah. lets pass around that AI and see who pops up :) * dirk mumbles 'upstream bugzilla integration' once again - I'm sure it was mentioned already :-) <henne> apokryphos: its not only for duplicates. developers are spending way to much time to validate and reproduce bugs... <henne> lately <coolo> apokryphos: of course often you first need to investigate to figure it's really XFS <Beineri> dirk: AOL <coolo> apokryphos: people don't tell it's XFS root if you don't ask ;( <coolo> henne: the wizard won't reproduce for you * cboltz filed AI 343444 for Klaas <henne> coolo: no. the wizard gives me detailed information that helps me rerpoducing quicker <henne> we did that in support a long time ago and it was really helping <henne> there we had the same problems... <henne> anyway. i think this needs further discussion. lets see what comes out of that wizard thing <henne> we wont loose that topic as its an AI :) <apokryphos> maybe having a link to bugs.o.o on the bugzilla.n.c page would help <apokryphos> (with the openSUSE logo in the paragraph to make it stick out ;)) <Beineri> any statistics how many of all (new) bnc entries are for openSUSE? :-) <cboltz> Beineri: you should be able to find out yourself <fm> on the one side there are unresponsive reporters but on the other i have some bugs where the developers seem to be slow. is there any other way than pinging in bugzilla? <henne> fm: not really. developers beeing slow can mean a couple of things <henne> most times its scheduling <coolo> fm: best way is to terrorizing them not with pinging, but with proving new infos <coolo> fm: like installing on another machine, and on update from 10.1 and so on :) <coolo> fm: then they feel bad that you spend all this time on useless testing if the fix is just a one liner they don't have time for ;) <cboltz> Beineri: go to https://bugzilla.novell.com/query.cgi?format=report-table <cboltz> group by classification <cboltz> enter "-30d" in "Only bugs changed between" and select "bug creation" <cboltz> and click "search" <cboltz> (I can't do it because I can't access the Novellonly sections) <henne> okay on to the next topic? <fm> coolo: the eclipse startup script for example has two missing characters <coolo> fm: then provide a patch? <Marcus_> it would be great to have a seperate bugtracker for opensuse btw. (novell independent) <henne> Marcus_: why? <Marcus_> to make clear its an open project which is not directly controlled by a company. i personally dont like the novell sign on for opensuse, too. <fm> coolo: i did several months ago <henne> you not liking something is not really a reason to change an integral part of the project ;) <henne> just addblock it... <henne> anyway. on to the next topic <coolo> Marcus_: then I suggest you start and host a bugzilla <henne> its getting late

<henne> Questions & Answers wiki/channel <Marcus_> coolo, yes, why not. <Marcus_> hosting should not be the problem <henne> Georg asks on the wiki if we backport the intel driver 2.2.0 for openSUSE 10.3 <henne> whatever that means... <henne> which intel driver is he talking about? :) <henne> guesses please <Beineri> cboltz: for -60d it's the top #1 bugzilla user :-) <notlocalhorst> ipw <notlocalhorst> or the new one <henne> iwl <henne> ? <notlocalhorst> which is not really good on 10.3 <henne> is that something for Drivers:Wlan? <notlocalhorst> sure <henne> who is doing that project? <_fm_> henne: it is the xorg driver <henne> what now? wlan or x.org? :) <notlocalhorst> yeah, version number is to high for wlan :-) <henne> he <henne> so Georg please qualify your question... <notlocalhorst> and obs drivers/wlan is dead anyway <henne> no other questions on the wiki <henne> any general questions in here? <Marcus_> the main problem in my pov is that most core packages are directly related with novell (developed my novell payed persons) so its hard for an external maintainer to get better influence on / or maintain core packages (instead of just writing bug reports) <_fm_> xf86-video-intel 2.2.0 came into factory on Do Nov 15 2007 - sndirsch@suse.de <henne> Marcus_: true. that is something we try to tackle with the buildservice <henne> so no questions? <Marcus_> i have already joined it. but its hard to get through to core package maintaining <henne> _fm_: ah okay. so it should be in the X.org BS project <henne> Marcus_: once the BS is what its supposed to be it will be easy as one click (or even as easy as better maintaining a core package) <Marcus_> that would be great. <henne> Marcus_: have a look at the last years FOSDEM presentations. there are several concepts <henne> Marcus_: or better come to FOSDEM this year :) <henne> okay as we have no questions <henne> Okay that was it then. If you have more, dont hesitate to bring it up on the appropriate mailinglist. <Marcus_> one problem with building upgraded packages for older stable releases is system integrity. couldnt a newer version of a packages installed through one-click simply brake upgradability? <henne> The next project meeting will be at the 5th of December. Same channel but this time at 12:00 GMT!!! <henne> The next meeting is the GNOME meeting tomorrow at 17:00 GMT. Be there :) <henne> Thank you all for participating. Good night and good luck! <henne> EOM