Speaker: jpr (18:03:54) jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in Progress - Introduction (jpr) suseROCKs: ahh so rodrigo's the one recording my smart-ass comments. casualprogrammer: rodrigo_: sed is very powerful at extracting stuff.. rodrigo_: casualprogrammer: what, the meeting minutes?? jpr: Welcome to the weekly openSUSE GNOME team meeting! jpr: < 7 days until 11.0 explodes upon the world rodrigo_: casualprogrammer: ah, for AIs yes, but this is minutes + AIs casualprogrammer: rodrigo_: yes, why not ? jpr: in all its gloary jpr: glory even

Speaker: vuntz (18:04:42) jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in Progress - Promoting 11.0 (vuntz) jpr: vuntz: ... +++suseROCKs dons his "Vuntz for president" shirt hobbsc: well, if he doesn't chime in hobbsc: we discussed some blog entries hobbsc: i posted one, myself hobbsc: a "why do you use opensuse" entry

Speaker: vuntz/hobbsc (18:05:48) jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in Progress - Promoting 11.0 (vuntz/hobbsc) +++decriptor notes because opensuse is freakin' awesome :P hobbsc: http://altbit.org/wp/?p=157 hobbsc: it would be cool if others could do the same vuntz: hrm, sorry, I'm on phone hobbsc: also, maybe something about purchasing the boxed set? jpr: delivery is free right now :-) jpr: also jpr: if someone was of the mind to right a sneak peeks article for 11.0 jpr: that would be great jpr: i'll get it posted on news.opensuse.org suseROCKs: it'd be an easier selling point if a live penguin delivers the boxed version. +++hobbsc isn't that great of a writer vuntz: I'd like to see a series of articles about specific stuff in 11.0 vuntz: I wanted to start one, but haven't had time so far :/ +++casualprogrammer rights an article soon.. suseROCKs: ok here's an idea... suseROCKs: Let's confab on a list of topics for the seris of articles that vuntz proposes. suseROCKs: That way, those of us who can't think of a topic can get inspired by looking at the list. vuntz: suseROCKs: +1 hobbsc: +1 rodrigo_: +1 hobbsc: they should be "user-friendly" features, i think suseROCKs: http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Topics  ? casualprogrammer: +1 hobbsc: not-so-techy things jpr: apokryphos: are you writing sneak peaks for 11.0? hobbsc: i was listening to some apple users talk about linux last night suseROCKs: I think he is. hobbsc: and they said they wouldn't use it because it's "too experimental" hobbsc: if we can somehow portray opensuse as a single package hobbsc: with everything all at your finger tips hobbsc: and avoid the modular techy stuff hobbsc: that might draw users that wouldn't normally consider linux hobbsc: much less opensuse +++hobbsc *crickets* suseROCKs: that's always been the mislabel. I've shown Apple users what i can do that they couldn't do wrt editing images/videos and they were puzzled. They thought something must be wrong with Linux if it could do what Apple couldn't do. casualprogrammer: hobbsc: not consider Linux, much less openSUSE ?? hobbsc: casualprogrammer: believe it or not, there are people out there who are afraid of linux decriptor: I think it would be cool to highlight the new zypper/reposistory/package selector/speed improvement stuff hobbsc: because they can't do the things they want to the way they're used to jpr: that was done in a sneak peak already suseROCKs: Then they say, pls install that on my Mac. (ugh) vuntz: nod, things should be highlighted from a user point of view decriptor: how easy it is to install new software, add repositories, etc. jpr: duncan was interviewed on the management stuff rodrigo_: I'd like to see articles on 'how to use os for ...', like for media center, for kiosk, etc, etc hobbsc: yeah, i think repo/package stuff would be to techy hobbsc: rodrigo_: agreed vuntz: things I can think of: zypper, pulseaudio, randr1.2 hotness, packagekit, etc. vuntz: hobbsc: it depends how you write the post hobbsc: problem there being, i don't think any of us are just normal 'users' jpr left the room (quit: "Leaving"). rodrigo_: I've started a long time one about setting up a media center, but since I didn't set it up yet, it's not done, but I'll try hard hobbsc: i know if i went to my grandmother with zypper and pa, she'd ask me "why do i need that?" suseROCKs: vuntz: good topics, but we need more "down to earth home user" type topics. vuntz: hobbsc: pulseaudio is quite techy, but if you show how it can be useful for the user to do new stuff, then it'll work hobbsc: and "why do i care, windows does it for me" jpr [n=jpr@opensuse/member/Jproseve] entered the room.

1. opensuse-gnome: mode (+o jpr ) by ChanServ

hobbsc: i'm going to have to go with suseROCKs on this one hobbsc: i agree that those are exciting features hobbsc: but $joe_user isn't going to dig that hobbsc: and if we want to attract a wider userbase, we need to look at people other than existing linux nerds hobbsc: linux (even opensuse) is still seen as a fringe os hpj: there's always the pretty artwork :) rodrigo_: if you look at PC magazines (at least here in Spain), they're all about how I do this? stuff hobbsc: rodrigo_: exactly vuntz: hobbsc: any example of what you'd like to see? suseROCKs: hobbsc: I wouldn't say "other than existing nerds" but "in addition to existing nerds." They're still vital for spreading the word to home users. rodrigo_: so, we need to get, IMO, a list of tasks people would like to use OS11 for, and start from that hobbsc: what about articles on how to use opensuse for a business desktop (word processing, etc.), media center (watch movies, listen to music, edit photos) decriptor: what about 1-click and how easy it is to find and install new software? hobbsc: and the big one hobbsc: play some games hobbsc: decriptor: i still think that's too techy for the average user hobbsc: might be something to highlight rodrigo_: hobbsc: yes, or 'how to install os on your ps3 and see hd video' suseROCKs: rodrigo_: you writing all this down?  :-) vuntz: hobbsc: that doesn't sound like things that are new in 11.0, it's general stuff about opensuse hpj: we have banshee 1.0, don't we? rodrigo_: that's the kind of stuff people like, at least from what I see in Pc magazines around here :) decriptor: hobbsc: though, the average user might be scared away by the fact that they don't know where to find software? rodrigo_: suseROCKs: no, not the ideas hpj: do we have some uniqueness in the openoffice camp too, perhaps? hobbsc: i think general things would promote opensuse as a whole, not just 11 +++casualprogrammer would like to bring up the audiences issue here as well, different audiences, different approach.. hobbsc: decriptor: think about trying to sell opensuse to your grandmother hobbsc: why not two sets of articles decriptor: hobbsc: man, I could barely get it to use windows :P hpj: we could highlight specific things and use that as a "bait" to show off the general things we have (that other distros do too) hobbsc: one intro set for joe user, keep it dumbed down vuntz: hobbsc: hrm, then I'd argue it's the kind of things we should work on now to be ready for 11.1 ;-) hobbsc: and flashy hobbsc: then another set for more technically inclined people suseROCKs: If you're all in agreementt , I'll create a wiki page http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/TopicstoWrite suseROCKs: and we all submit ideas there. hobbsc: sure, works for me suseROCKs: This goes nicely hand in hand with the Helping Hands Program though +++casualprogrammer would like to bring up the audiences issue here as well, different audiences, different approach.. decriptor: what about mostly picture based tutorials suseROCKs: screencasts decriptor: something that my grandma for example could follow decriptor: screencasts would be cool too rodrigo_: casualprogrammer: yeah, so let's go with the 2 types of articles hobbsc talks about hobbsc: decriptor: +1 vuntz: if we're going to write some big general stuff, maybe we could consider doing this in a cross-distro way (with help from others) ( there's no big difference in using OOo on openSUSE/Fedora/Mandriva/Ubuntu, eg rodrigo_: yeah, screencasts, or just photo-howtos hpj: i think technical is good too, we need to grow the developer base hobbsc: how about a wiki page for the ideas, ala suseROCKs, with two sections hpj: things like this: hpj: http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2008/06/12/power-trends/ decriptor: lol, GUI and CLI tutorials :P hobbsc: a tech series and a beginner series rodrigo_: vuntz: yes, right casualprogrammer: rodrigo_: I would even add some.. hpj: look at what he's done for fedora, even though he's really talking about linux +++vuntz is getting obsessed with cross-desktop and cross-distro efforts suseROCKs: hpj: why do we need to grow the developer base? Aren't you able to do it all? +++suseROCKs ducks hpj: suseROCKs: as long as i can delegate to you +++suseROCKs once again re-learns that he needs to shut up. decriptor: suseROCKs: so now that you are doing all the development.... +++decriptor searches for his list of items :) suseROCKs: what have I done.... (shakes head) jpr: ok, lots of good ideas suseROCKs: jpr since they're related, can we move my topic up to follow vuntz's topic? hpj: anyway, i think generating buzz is good - it doesn't have to be lengthy articles jpr: sure, i want to get to an idea of who the point person is on this though hpj: or even positive articles hpj: :) hpj: as long as people are constantly reading about opensuse, they'll try it vuntz: hpj: exactly

Speaker: suseROCKs (18:24:06) jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in Progress - Helping Hands Launch (suseROCKs) jpr: suseROCKs: ... suseROCKs: +1 hpj When going to lxer.com, it gets tiring to see a plethora of articles on other distros and a lack on our own. suseROCKs: ok Helping Hands wiki page is created. http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/HowTos +++decriptor made sure that zonker is keynoting at the utah open source conference :) suseROCKs: I'd like you all to review it, make sure it looks good suseROCKs: Someone needs to be the pointman on the HowTo column, but I'll handle the Helping Hands column jpr: is there a plan to integrate with the project wide howtos? suseROCKs: What I need most from you all is to submit topics and volunteer to be a Helping Hands expert. casualprogrammer: suseROCKs: where can I sign on ? suseROCKs: jpr: my feeling is we'll probably post the actual articls on the wide HowTos and use this column to link to it. +++decriptor was hoping to get some work done on opensuse-tutorials.com for this purpose, as there seems to be a popular one for ubuntu and kind of fedora +++decriptor doesn't seem to have the time though :( jpr: ok vuntz: suseROCKs: actually suseROCKs: casualprogrammer: http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/HowTos/HelpingHandsTopics jpr: note, there may be some KDE howtos vuntz: suseROCKs: shouldn't the users submit topics? jpr: that are easily copied with slight updates suseROCKs: vuntz: yes anyone can submit topics. I'm asking us all to submit topics to get the ball rolling. jpr: ie s/KDE/GNOME/ jpr: :-) vuntz: suseROCKs: ok jpr: with some new screenshots or whatever jpr: suseROCKs: are you going to mail the list as well? suseROCKs: vuntz: any of you may feel that you're an expert on a particular subject and want to get center stage for an hour.  :-) suseROCKs: jpr: yes I will be mailing the list, as well as informing the marketing group about this so we can get the word out. jpr: ok decriptor: it seems like a lot of 'marketing' to get the word out needs to be done. What about trying to get some of these once finished onto something like howtoforge.com vuntz: suseROCKs: it sounds a lot like something ubuntu has been doing decriptor: it feels like there aren't very many opensuse articles on that site +++vuntz tries to remember how it was called suseROCKs: jpr: what I need now is to figure out who the experts are for some of the topcis I've suggested so far. suseROCKs: vuntz: I wouldn't know about that. I've never used oobontoo jpr: maybe its time to review hpj 's knowledge map hobbsc: FunkyGeeko: IMPOSTER! +++casualprogrammer is surprised at suseROCKs 's area(s) of expertise.. suseROCKs: casualprogrammer: all that matters is how to play Adventure. Right? FunkyGeeko: heh, sorry peeps builders decided to blow the substation :( casualprogrammer: suseROCKs: :-) vuntz: suseROCKs: basically, they do a week where there's a special irc channel for this kind of stuff vuntz: and it's a kind of university for people, where they can learn about things suseROCKs: A university. That's a good way to describe it. Precisely what we need here. suseROCKs: So does the wiki pages look good so far? casualprogrammer: suseROCKs: and we need to be polite and openminded.. what turns me off sometimes is the attitude in some of the forae.. rodrigo_: suseROCKs: yeah bugbot: New openSUSE 11.1 (GNOME) bug 399730 filed by jpr@novell.com. bugbot: Bug https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=399730 Normal, P5 - None, NEW, gnome-system-monitor should require lsb package suseROCKs: casualprogrammer: then I can't participate.  :-) rodrigo_: if we get a good collection of howtos, we could even publish an opensuse digital magazine, monthly or so casualprogrammer: suseROCKs: just be nice every now and then ;-) decriptor: these pages it to be easily findable decriptor: what if on the main opensuse page we add an university box decriptor: ? suseROCKs: ok so to wrap up, everyone likes what we're doing, I'm to tap hpj's mind (with protective goggles) and let the marketing team know about this project. suseROCKs: decriptor: yes, I was looking for the proper place to put it on /GNOME/ as well, but didn't see a category. Any suggestions? decriptor: suseROCKs: sometime it feels like its really hard to find information on the wiki rodrigo_: what's wrong with HowTos ? :) suseROCKs: +1 decriptor vuntz: suseROCKs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek decriptor: and there are multiple articles on one subject vuntz: suseROCKs: but this is for developers. I believe there was something for users too casualprogrammer: rodrigo_: nothing rodrigo_: then we should put all documentation under HowTos suseROCKs: vuntz: hopefully this will grow and other sections of openSUSE will join in the Helping Hands project as well. decriptor: it would be great to see all of it cleaned up and organized so that its easy to find rodrigo_: decriptor: yes, indeed vuntz: suseROCKs: the important thing is planning and to make sure people will help FunkyGeeko: decriptor: an inherent problem with wikis suseROCKs: yes, hence begging for you all to be committed to this.  :-) decriptor: FunkyGeeko: yeah :/ suseROCKs: and FYI: I'd like to have our first topic (whatever we settle on) within two weeks from now. vuntz: suseROCKs: sounds good jpr: +1 vuntz: suseROCKs: do you plan this to be a weekly event? jpr: ok, anything else on this? suseROCKs: also FYI: (Last one) Experts do not have to be affiliated with openSUSE. They could be from a particular project. decriptor: that is kind of why I wanted to start opensuse-tutorials.com, something that people can have an rss feed and catch new how-tos suseROCKs: vuntz: ideally yes. But that depends on everyone's commitment and enthusiasm. rodrigo_: decriptor: oh, that sounds good decriptor: http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/ decriptor: kind of like this one +++casualprogrammer wonders if rodrigo notices his helping hand.. suseROCKs: decriptor: that's a nice idea too. Hmm I wonder if we can RSS our wiki pages rodrigo_: casualprogrammer: yeah, noted, go on if you have more stuff to add :) suseROCKs: jpr: I think I'm done on this topic. jpr: ok +++jpr looks forward to this decriptor: suseROCKs: I could always point to new articles in the wiki jpr: building the next layer of community is a great thing

Speaker: jpr (18:40:13) jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in Progress - Nominating Bug-X for Maintenance Updates (jpr) jpr: Just a reminder, tag your potential updates with gnome-update please jpr: developers, ask anja for a swamp id jpr: hpj: your nautilus fix is not tagged i think casualprogrammer: what became of that eager youngster philphot by the way ? hpj: jpr: it went in already hpj: jpr: it was there in RC4 decriptor: does someone have a predefined gnome opensuse 11.0 search? jpr: hpj: oh? hpj: jpr: maybe you're talking about a different bug rodrigo_: hpj: your nautilus update is the removal of the thumbnailing-related patch, right? hpj: jpr: i have some bugs i need to mark jpr: hpj: the reverting of the patch that caused extra disk usage hpj: yeah, that's in hpj: check the changelog casualprogrammer: decriptor: try http://mvidner.blogspot.com/2008/05/easier-bugzilla-search.html jpr: ooh, it did make it jpr: nice rodrigo_: hpj: check my last submission, there was a comment about your patch (bug #397852) bugbot: openSUSE bug 397852 in openSUSE 11.0 (GNOME) "big nautilus memory leak ..." [Critical,Resolved: fixed] https://bugzilla.novell.com/397852 hpj: i have a couple of other ones, the "gvfs recursive copy/delete" one from upstream, for instance jpr: ok casualprogrammer: suseROCKs: what became of that eager youngster philphot by the way ? He was on about distributing preconfigured openSUSE PC's tambeti: I have 5-10 NM fixes I'd like to push sometime soon jpr: vuntz, rodrigo_, sreeves, tambeti, cyberorg : others to tag? jpr: tambeti: you can bundle them up in one swamp id vuntz: jpr: nothing so far rodrigo_: jpr: the pulseaudio and realplayer thing maybe tambeti: jpr: yeah, will do jpr: tambeti: need info anja in one bug and point to the others in that bug jpr: rodrigo_: tag it even if its "maybe" still

Speaker: rodrigo / vuntz (18:44:51) jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in Progress - Use bugzilla instead of wiki for AI's (rodrigo / vuntz) +++FunkyGeeko found the culprit to his eee woes - gdm vuntz: so it looks like people forget too easily about their AI on the wiki rodrigo_: ok, captain_magnus forced vuntz and me to talk about this :-) rodrigo_: ah, go on vuntz vuntz: after a quick discussion with captain_magnus, we wondered about using bugzilla instead vuntz: since that's what we already use to track things vuntz: this would involve adding a new AI component, eg vuntz: another important point captain_magnus raised was that it's important to have someone constantly nagging people so that they actually do their AI ;-) vuntz: some AI master suseROCKs: sadly I didn't do a good job at that. Although actually I am not sure how I ended up being the taskmaster. jpr: suseROCKs and btimothy before him did that well jpr: until we voted for them to stop :-) +++casualprogrammer wonders what AI stands for, but is afraid to ask.. vuntz: casualprogrammer: I think it's action item suseROCKs: it's a rather boorish and unglamorous process. but important nonetheless. +++decriptor thanks casualprogrammer for asking :P rodrigo_: I think using correct priorities in bugzilla should us all pay more attention, since we look and review bugs very often vuntz: casualprogrammer: I guessed this after a while ;-) casualprogrammer: vuntz: :-) rodrigo_: or Artifical Intelligence suseROCKs: vuntz: one question. Can bugzilla automatically remind us of our tasks if we use that? +++decriptor is helping on an AI project and thought of aritificial intelligence every time he saw that :P +++casualprogrammer was on the same byroad as rodrigo.. rodrigo_: I think it's got a 'time needed' field suseROCKs: rodrigo_: no such thing as Artificial Intelligence in here. You guys are as real as it gets! rodrigo_: suseROCKs: you never know :-) +++decriptor apologizes for bringing that down :P +++hobbsc <- totally a robot decriptor: lol vuntz: suseROCKs: don't know, but I know having someone spamming me by mail or on irc would help me a lot ;-) vuntz: (someone or something) +++suseROCKs sees hobbsc as the Tin Man in Wizard of Oz. hobbsc: if i only had a brain decriptor: vuntz: we have a great deal on a new used car.... suseROCKs: hobbsc: that's the scarecrow! And you call yourself an openSUSE expert?? +++casualprogrammer wonders who would be the lion.. hobbsc: heh, i never said i was an expert casualprogrammer: hobbsc: you are chef de cuisine rodrigo_: so, should we move to bugzilla? +++casualprogrammer thinks he had never had such delicious baked processors rodrigo_: or continue not paying attention to the wiki? :) hobbsc: i think if it can notify via email or something, it might be useful suseROCKs: rodrigo_: I'd suggest we verify that all the things we want can be done first. rodrigo_: you get reminder mails once a week or something suseROCKs: AI to rodrigo_  :-) rodrigo_: grr, I should have said no to captain_magnus :) decriptor: bug# 396032 is really annoying decriptor: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=396032 bugbot: openSUSE bug 396032 in openSUSE 11.0 (GNOME) "gnome-appearance-properties shows customized theme on fresh login" [Normal,Needinfo] rodrigo_: suseROCKs: also, all your tasks will show up in bugzilla under 'my bugs' jpr: decriptor: thats fixed rodrigo_: suseROCKs: so I don't think we need anything else, provided the wiki doesn't notify us decriptor: oh its set to needinfo on bugzilla and I ran into it yesterday :( suseROCKs: rodrigo_: Notification and proper categorization are what I think is important. vuntz: also it's easy to ping on bugzilla jpr: decriptor: i just haven't closed it. vuntz: just add a comment decriptor: jpr: oh ok thanks, rodrigo_: suseROCKs: well, we can just have a new product with separate components suseROCKs: right suseROCKs: so get to it rodrigo_ :-) mhwork|gone is now known as mhutch rodrigo_: jpr: is it easy to ask for a new product/component in bugzilla ? jpr: its easy to ask suseROCKs: LOL rodrigo_: also, it's easy to add screenshots, log files, etc in bugzilla than in the wiki jpr: probably the opensuse-project people could add it jpr: like they have for AI's in the project meeting rodrigo_: jpr: should I ask in opensuse-project@ then ? jpr: mail henne rodrigo_: well, do we all agree in moving to bugzilla? suseROCKs: +1 hobbsc: +1 rodrigo_: I don't see anything missing from what we have in the wiki, which is jsut a text page casualprogrammer: +1 jpr: decriptor: or not... rodrigo_: and who would be the AI master? decriptor: jpr: that bug? jpr: decriptor: will check again later +++jpr shuts up in the meeting suseROCKs: rodrigo_: I nominate captain_magnus. He's the one who gets all hot on tasks anyway. decriptor: jpr: it took forever to launch and set my dpi to 146 (I'm near sighted, not far sighted :P ) rodrigo_: ok, approved, captain_magnus is the new AI master :-) jpr: hehe jpr: who's AI is it to tell him? :-) suseROCKs: captain_magnus: if you oppose say so within one minute or you're automatically elected. rodrigo_: if he does't say anything against it in the next 5 minutes... vuntz: yeah, captain_magnus wants to be the AI master. He mentioned it to me yesterday +++vuntz hopes captain_magnus won't read the log :-) jpr: cool rodrigo_: :D suseROCKs: 5 minutes is too generous. jpr: who is mailing henne to request using the project component? rodrigo_: jpr: I'll CC him on the mail to henne jpr: ok

Speaker: jpr (18:59:33) jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in Progress - Bug Triage Policy (jpr) jpr: i will mail the list jpr: but i wanted to put this out there now jpr: the bug tagging was quite sucessful for 11.0 decriptor: just a quick random thought, it would be cool to have an option that prevents the application browser from closing right away (reading bugs made me think of this) jpr: decriptor: there is a gconf option laready jpr: it helped us focus more on user impact jpr: rather than technical severity jpr: which was a good thing suseROCKs: yeah decriptor didn't you know that?? (Even I didn't know that hehe) jpr: there are some more aspect to bug handling that have traditionally been inconsistent jpr: or not well understood outside of novell decriptor: jpr: now that would be a great thing to document :P FunkyGeeko: folks, i've got to shoot - i do have a question looking for input from all jpr: so i'd like to present jpr: http://en.opensuse.org/User:Jproseve/TriageProposal jpr: FunkyGeeko: go quick FunkyGeeko: im looking at doing a talk at lrl uk FunkyGeeko: and was wondering if people had any suggestions as to what to include from an opensuse-gnome perspective suseROCKs: It's the home to an incredibly studly good looking group of GNOMEies if any chick geeks are interested. jpr: FunkyGeeko: "Torrential Funky - the torrent client selection story" :-) vuntz: FunkyGeeko: might be nice to talk about how we're working as a team? jpr: FunkyGeeko: it would be great to highlight the community contributions vuntz: heh jpr: as well as the 11.0 bling of course :-) suseROCKs: didn't jpr have a community contributions slideshow recently? jpr: :-) jpr: in needs more additions already FunkyGeeko: heh, nice idea FunkyGeeko: ok thanks folks, bbl +++jpr returns suseROCKs: Is that veal jpr is returning with? FunkyGeeko: i'll try and put something together and let you lot review it :) jpr: there are a lot of key things for this proposal decriptor: jpr: where in gconf should I be looking? jpr: decriptor: later pleae decriptor: jpr: ok jpr: 1. it attempts to better define severities jpr: (and make them consistent with what novell is moving to internally) jpr: 2. It moves to priority rather than severity as the first order driver of what gets fixed jpr: 3. It pushes for being better citizens upstream with bug filing in bugzilla.gnome.org and other upstream bugzilla suseROCKs: who defines "priority" one person's priority may not be another person's priority. jpr: (for less high priority bugs) jpr: 4. it attempts to clearly define a triage process some that technical but not necessarily developers can easily perform it in a repeatable manner jpr: ( help to have developers spend more time fixing bugs rather than collecting basic info) jpr: so jpr: with that said, discussions, feedback? jpr: for suseROCKs 's question jpr: yes jpr: that is true decriptor: jpr: bug voting looks like a cool ida decriptor: idea hobbsc: jpr: i haven't had a chance to review the list yet, but i'll give it an earnest look +++suseROCKs is glad one of those bullet points didn't include hpj's earlier suggestion of delegating everything to me. jpr: i would like development to set priority jpr: and i would like it reviewd in meetings like this vuntz: suseROCKs: jpr forgot to mention you'd be the bugmaster jpr: i also tried to give samples of prioritization jpr: so people could get an idea casualprogrammer: jpr: is there a database on hardware used with openSuSE ? That could be an indicator. The more people affected, the higher priority.. suseROCKs: jpr: just throwing an idea out there... no offense to developers. But what if priority voting was not left in the hands of developers? rodrigo_: I think voting should drive the priorities, if everyone voted casualprogrammer: rodrigo_: _everyone_ jpr: generating consistency with the process will i hope lead also to ongoing triage to find important bugs more quickly and escalate them sooner hpj: i think you need some technical insight in order to set priorities hpj: for prioritizing low hanging fruit, for instance casualprogrammer: hpj: true jpr: i should say by "development" i do not mean exclusively those writing code hpj: but developers should listen to votes hpj: and take that into account jpr: i think trusted testers, triagers and developers suseROCKs: ok jpr: are all "development" +++jpr is not intending to be exclusionary casualprogrammer: hpj: on the other hand low-pri items should be fixed immediately if fixing faster than postponing.. jpr: what i'm driving at this that random j. user does not set the priority :-) suseROCKs: I wasn't trying to discount devs, just wanted to ensure we had a system where users didn't feel like they weren't being heard. jpr: part of this hpj: casualprogrammer: we could have a process for priority dispute resolution jpr: is i think users do feel like they are not heard already casualprogrammer: hpj: +1 jpr: but writing this down at least explains hobbsc: could someone drop me the gobby info again, i killed my X session jpr: why there bug is or is not getting attention jpr: if you can but a comment in a bug that says hpj: i think everyone involved in this meeting is competent to set priorities in most cases rodrigo_: hobbsc: 80.59.90.211 jpr: "P3 - works in default configuration, but not in corner case for users with xfs" hobbsc: thanks jpr: people will get why its not being worked on immediately jpr: for the bug voting jpr: thats also an out jpr: we will get it wrong sometimes jpr: so users can over rule us by sheer numbers :-) suseROCKs: jpr: one word of caution... suseROCKs: the ones who are most irate think they're not a corner case, even if they are.  :-) jpr: sure jpr: "corner case" should not actually go into the comment :-) hpj: we could make "under-prioritized bugs" a regular part of the meetings jpr: hpj: yes tambeti: also, what about feature requests upstream will never accept? hpj: and ask for disputes to get resolved there hpj: so as to avoid bugzilla fights casualprogrammer: suseROCKs: and it doesn't help them with their problem if we tell them to go to their corner with their case jpr: tambeti: that is partly covered there tambeti: jpr: sorry, didn't read it :) jpr: tambeti: well, its mostly implied jpr: tambeti: if you read the upstreaming bits jpr: you will see that i'm proposing that we stop doing things like UI changes and string breaks apokryphos: jpr: I started them but I'm not able to complete them because I'm on holiday abroad now. I sent a call out on -marketing for helpers but so far only one person has voluntered to do the kde4 article jpr: for things upstream will not accept jpr: other than really horrible cases apokryphos: perhaps I'll send out a call for help on -project. I have time to review things but no time to write stuff :( jpr: apokryphos: ok, suseROCKs will get in the mix jpr: :-) apokryphos: woo jpr: it is important to note jpr: that we will close more bugs to let upstream handle them apokryphos: suseROCKs: ping beineri for a news.o.o account. I can help with general advice ( see my post on -marketing for general info jpr: there are a couple of points here jpr: 1. we should do that anyhow casualprogrammer: jpr: we need a simple means to transfer a bug upstream, though jpr: 2. we don't have the manpower to fix all bugs currently, and this can only help jpr: 3. its better to give closure to a bug than to let it linger untouched for a year or more suseROCKs: I for one think that jpr is coming up with some great proposals jpr: casualprogrammer: agreed jpr: part of this is me working with our bug team internally to automate jpr: or coming up for a solution jpr: in the meantime manually filing would have to do suseROCKs: apokryphos: great. I'll get back to you on that later today. jpr: i have put this proposal out in the KDE meeting as well jpr: i hope to propose it more broadly after feedback, consultation with QA etc vuntz: jpr: what about the gnome-main-menu case? Should we move the bugs in bgo too? jpr: vuntz: thats trickier, the wording currently is "primarily developed upstream" jpr: gnome-main-menu jpr: developed by upstream that is jpr: there are several modules that need to be thought about specifically jpr: NetworkManager jpr: gnome-main-menu jpr: banshee jpr: evolution suseROCKs: jpr: is therre anything in the proposal about explaining clearly the difference between local and upstream? So users don't feel like they're being ignored locally? jpr: maybe a few others vuntz: jpr: imho, they would all benefit from moving completely to the bgo infrastructure rodrigo_: yes vuntz: jpr: it's the way to go as a community jpr: vuntz: sure, in fact i propose we file every bug upstream jpr: just not close all of them and remind/later suseROCKs: hmm jpr: ie we still fix important upstream bugs downstream jpr: because of release/testing timelines and needs vuntz: nod, but that's not specific to those projects jpr: (and send the fix up stream) jpr: vuntz: correct vuntz: that's true for all packages jpr: are there any big philosophical issues to discuss on this? jpr: can leave the rest of the nuts and bolts to the ML

Speaker: vuntz (19:27:11) jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in Progress - discussing 11.1 features (vuntz) jpr: vuntz: ... vuntz: heh vuntz: didn't know I had this on the agenda ;-) vuntz: so suseROCKs: him again? +++vuntz looks for the link vuntz: I created http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Ideas/11.1 vuntz: it's based on the 11.0 page +++jpr thinks some of these are actually done or at least have owners now vuntz: exactly vuntz: we need people to look at what's there and remove the items that are done +++casualprogrammer gets 504 Gateway Time-Out on vuntz's ideas... vuntz: (wiki is down for me) jpr: ditto jpr: back now though vuntz: indeed decriptor: hpj: suseROCKs didn't know you worked on a11y stuff jpr: we should also probably discuss wishlist, policy and pattern vuntz: yep jpr: *way* earlier in the cycle this time suseROCKs: jpr: I think darragh is no longer with Novell. he doesn't even respond anymore. jpr: like before the end of June decriptor: what if the wishlist was something like ideas.opensuse.org where people can vote? hpj: suseROCKs: that's correct, he sent me a mail jpr: decriptor: there is a voting plugin in the wiki decriptor: oh cool jpr: decriptor: if you care to figure out how to use it... jpr: i think that would be great decriptor: sure suseROCKs: decriptor: I hear ideas.o.o doesn't get referenced much. +++casualprogrammer looks at vuntz's ideas in awe.. decriptor: suseROCKs: I think it would be good if it did vuntz: casualprogrammer: heh, I just copied the things from 11.0 decriptor: suseROCKs: build an innovation section suseROCKs: +1 decriptor because I have some stunning ideas there.  :-) decriptor: lol suseROCKs: then again, I didn't know about i.o.o until someone mentioned it. Many may not realize it is there except via word of mouth. vuntz: it'd be nice to have people take a few hours to think about what big changes they'd like to see in 11.1 suseROCKs: vuntz: like an openSUSE Ice Cream dispenser? +++decriptor would love to see all of the .[config directories] move to one folder :) I hate looking at all of them +++casualprogrammer has to be off, wife's come home and invites me to dinner.. I let the notebook run, could someone keep a copy of the log just in case ? suseROCKs: and decriptor yes hpj and I are the a11y dudes here, but we need more real a11y users for testing. If you know more, send them our way. decriptor: suseROCKs: I'm working on the mono-a11y team now suseROCKs: cool decriptor: suseROCKs: I think one of our devs is blind, so some extra help there suseROCKs: decriptor: by the way, vuntz is part of the GNome A11y team as well. decriptor: oh cool decriptor: is there work to redesign the main menu again? hobbsc: ally? vuntz: suseROCKs: am I? suseROCKs: hobbsc: a-one-one-y (accessibility) jpr: ok

Speaker: casualprogrammer (19:36:06) jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in Progress - Agenda for upcoming meeting (casualprogrammer) suseROCKs: vuntz: well your name shows up every once ina while on the a11y mailling list  :-) jpr: casualprogrammer: ... hobbsc: jpr: i believe he just left jpr: ah hobbsc: jpr: 12:34 * casualprogrammer has to be off, wife's come home and invites me to dinner.. I let the notebook run, could someone keep a copy of the log just in case ? jpr: so decriptor: jpr: wife called him for dinner jpr: 1. helping hands jpr: update jpr: (SUSERocks) hobbsc: i say we bring up the triage again once folks have had a chance to read your list jpr: 2. 11.1 Features jpr: ok jpr: 3. Bug Triage jpr: 4. the introduction :-) jpr: other stuff? hobbsc: articles? rodrigo_: we'll do the intro in 4th place? :-) hobbsc: or is that taken care of? rodrigo_: that's part of helping hands uopdate I guess hobbsc: yeah suseROCKs: :-)

Speaker: jpr (19:38:56) jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in Progress - Q&A jpr: questions? suseROCKs: Aren't we due for a theme meeting? jpr: issues? rodrigo_: well, 5. AI move to bugzilla, captain_magnus might have some stuff to say jpr: suseROCKs: yup jpr: rodrigo_: good point suseROCKs: rodrigo_: "might have"??? I thought you knew captain_magnus. He ALWAYS has something to say! vuntz: rodrigo_: you mean, something like "I didn't want to be nominated!" ;-) rodrigo_: suseROCKs: yeah, that's why we add him to the agenda :-) rodrigo_: :D jpr: last call for questions! jpr: (long meeting today) vuntz: jpr: shall we have some howto for the community on how to submit a package via the build service? jpr: we should suseROCKs: yes but a great meeting jpr. I actually feel more invigorated after today's meeting than in the past. rodrigo_: vuntz: yes! for the developers articles jpr: that would be a good thing for mw to write up vuntz: jpr: so we can have more contributors helping updating gnome on release days jpr: the new buildservice stuff is *awesome* btw jpr: for allowing that decriptor: is there a tool that can collect all of the information for a bug? jpr: maybe Riggwelter wants to be involved there too decriptor: I guess maybe like bug buddy ??? where it can collect data and then present the option to auto file a bug on bugzilla? rodrigo_: ok, must go, if there's anything missing in the notes, please add it, I'll send it later suseROCKs: jpr hpj can we meet later on this afternoon to brainpick possible Helping Hands? decriptor: suseROCKs: is there a opensuse-a11y mailing list? jpr: thanks all!