Started at --> 19:07 mw: Welcome to our weekly opensuse-gnome meeting everyone rodrigo: topiquero?? :) mw: rodrigo: it's easier to change the topic from xchat than from irssi... but chanserv didn't agree, so so much for that :) mw: Anyway, we've had enough of these that I think we all know the drill by now. mw: This week is scheduled to be one of our themed meetings... do we have any representatives from the build service here today?

Started at --> 19:09 mw: Too bad; it doesn't look like anyone from that team is here right now mw: so let's move on to talking about factory testing, and see if we can round up someone from the bs team meanwhile rodrigo: should we ping someone in #opensuse-buildservice ? **federico1 goes to ping someone mw: federico1 just did mw: shall we wait a minute or should we just move on? suseROCKs: I say move on to factory and then come back to theme. mw: me too vuntz: well, I guess I can ask a stupid question while waiting? rodrigo: yeah mw: Go! suseROCKs: Since yoquierotacobell isn't here anyway.

Started at --> 19:12 vuntz: was just wondering if the themed meeting is the moment where we complain (in a constructive way, of course) about some stuff (so about bs in the bs case) mw: vuntz: yes vuntz: or if it's something else? rodrigo: vuntz: yes vuntz: good vuntz: everybody knows I like to complain rodrigo: :) vuntz: so, factory testing mw: rodrigo: so, it looks like you sort of own the three main to-be-tested packages in factory mw: what kind of feedback are you getting? rodrigo: not much really, although there have been bug reports rodrigo: which were also upstream, so were fixed mw: nice mw: have those packages been updated this week? rodrigo: no, but should with 2.22.0 update rodrigo: I was working this morning on the platform packages, but will come to the others soon rodrigo: cyberorg: should we add compiz/fusion stuff to the testing page? munkii: zypper is completely broken now :( cyberorg: rodrigo, emmes and sndirsch were running some tests, donno when they would be checking in update rodrigo: cyberorg: ok, let's make sure you or me add it when they are available rodrigo: cyberorg: although we can point people now to X11:XGL repo, right? cyberorg: rodrigo, ok, we'd need thorough testing :) mw: istr that there were some checkins earlier this week, but i don't know if they've percolated to Factory cyberorg: yes, there are 1-clicks available for various combinations http://dev.compiz-fusion.org/~cyberorg/2008/03/07/compiz-and-compiz-fusion-072-out/ rodrigo: AI: cyberorg and rodrigo to add compiz/fusion to the Testing page rodrigo: btw, who adds the tasks to RTM ? mw: anyone with access, i think mw: who wants to add them all when the meeting is over? :) rodrigo: I'd sugges to add them as the meeting goes, like I do with the minutes mw: rodrigo: that's fine too munkii: suseROCKs **suseROCKs ducks sreeves: +1 for suseROCKs munkii: he's the tasks guy suseROCKs: I'll write them down folks and put it in the task thingamabob rodrigo: +1 for suseROCKs mw: you've been volunteered, dude munkii: hehe suseROCKs: I gotta stop coming to these meetings mw: rodrigo: pulseaudio question: how often is it updated? mw: rodrigo: since it's replacing esd, should we add it to the list of packages to review when updating platform? rodrigo: mw: not much, but I submitted an update to 0.9.9 from cyberorg yesterday rodrigo: mw: yes mw: AI: maw add pulseaudio to the list of platform packages on the spreadsheet cyberorg: mw, it is drop in replacement, and provides esd-compat package suseROCKs: hey slow down! rodrigo: cyberorg: yeah, but we still need to review it I guess cyberorg: yeah sreeves: rodrigo: any plans for a UI update to reflect the new pulseaudio capabilites / changes sreeves: rodrigo: like in the cappletts cyberorg: sreeves, pa comes with its own UIs rodrigo: sreeves: good question, the sound capplet now is a bit redundant with pulseaudio stuff sreeves: yeah, but what about the existing sound capplets mw: well, when i say "review", i mean check for a newer upstream version, make sure that it's suitable, etc rodrigo: although it still includes stuff not available in PA (like sounds for events) mw: and then update the package if that's trt, which it usually will be rodrigo: mw: ah suseROCKs: Hmm Tasky does make it easier to add AI's suseROCKs: (tap tap) this thing on? mw: ok, almost time to move on. Anything else for Factory testing? munkii: so, does that mean I don't have to add AI's to the meetings transcript again? rodrigo: tasque you mean!!! sreeves: any word on a fix for the broken NM in factory ? suseROCKs: munkii hold that for the tasks section of this agenda. mw: sreeves: tambet checked in a fix yesterday federico1: sreeves: word is that tambet and the d-bus/hal people are on a battle to the death sreeves: rodrigo: no gtasker (like g - nome ) :) munkii: when is A3 due? mw: munkii: i can't remember when it comes out, but the checkin deadline is tomorrow rodrigo: sreeves: gtasker?? I've seen commits for tasque, tasquer, but not gtasker mw: next topic! munkii: well A2 is dead to me

Started at --> 19:29 mw: federico1: go! **munkii pokes federico1 federico1: ok federico1: so, I blogged a little summary yesterday: http://www.gnome.org/~federico/news-2008-03.html#gtkfilechooser-bug-week-summary federico1: basically, we fixed a little bunch of usability bugs federico1: and I'm most proud of the new code for Tab completion in the filename entry. It's in the development version of gtk+ now, so my next task is to backport everything to openSUSE 10.3 / 11.0 and release it Spreadsheet: for 11.0 are they going to include the new gnome? eward: btimothy: Is banderson on irc anywhere? federico1: for the time being, I'm going to update my packages on the build service and ask people to test them on a more regular basis mw: federico1: cool. so it'll be in 11.0's version of gtk+? suseROCKs: federico1 out of curiousity, how long do the fruits of these hackweeks take before they reach openSUSE updates? federico1: mw: everything except the completion code will automatically get in with the next gtk+-2.12.x --- completion is only in svn trunk; I want people to give it some testing first mw: ok federico1: suseROCKs: I'll do my best for the gtk stuff to make it in this week or the next - need to request an internal process to release updates, etc. federico1: mw: but I'll put the completion patch in our 11.0 package to get extra testing :) suseROCKs: ok mw: federico1: aha, that's what i was hoping to hear :) federico1: suseROCKs: but you raise a good point - I need to make sure that fixes from bug weeks make it quickly into the distro :) federico1: mw: if the build service gives me love today, I'll do it today suseROCKs: I have an idea (slightly off topic) mw: federico1: ok. if you could get it into STABLE today, that'd be hella cool suseROCKs: Let's create a "New Features" page for 11.0 so that when we're in factory, we can look at the page and say "ooh, let's try that new trick" mw: AI: suseROCKs implement your suggestion munkii: hehe suseROCKs: AI: suseROCKs SHUT UP!!! mw: federico1: anything else before we move on? **mw guess not

Started at --> 19:39 Spreadsheet: whoa! im in a meeting mw: is lakhil or one of his cohorts around? munkii: oh, lakhil couldn't make it today, but he left me a note with the current status. we started out with 57 openSUSE10.2 gnome-related bugs, and now we are down to 26 (31 bugs resolved) mw: munkii: nice munkii: the remaining bugs are 12 marked as NEEDINFO, 2 assigned, and the rest still unassigned.. munkii: all in all, "Bug Munching" was a success! mw: teh awesomeness munkii: Thanks to all participants (specially captain_magnus who seems awfully silent tonight), and i hope we can resolve the remaining 26 bugs soon - ZERO bug reports in 10.2 should look pretty good :) munkii: maw.. mw: yes? munkii: ok, you can take the mic now munkii: that's all mw: ok munkii: any questions btw? mw: it's hpj's turn

Started at --> 19:41 suseROCKs: does that mean we only have 26 total bugs left outstanding for 10.2? or is this for a specific area? suseROCKs: mw's getting a little too giddy with his topic-changing powers... mw: hp is in jelly doughnut land this week, so i can't call him and have his wife wake him up this time... munkii: suseROCKs: yes only 26 gnome-related bugs are left hpj: hello mw: i pang him on IM a few minutes ago hpj: so hpj: i haven't been able to do much on Xgl, since i'm at the GTK+ hackfest Spreadsheet: where's that at? Spreadsheet: a real place? hpj: rodrigo was going to start looking into it, and wrote up a summary of the things we need to do hpj: yeah, berlin Spreadsheet: oh, cant make it there rodrigo: cyberorg can do a better summary, but mainly is: new compiz being submitted to FACTORY suseROCKs: hpj what did the GTK hackfest think of federico1's cool Tab Completion? Spreadsheet: everything that happens to opensuse is basically in germany, right? hpj: suseROCKs: that hasn't really been discussed mw: hpj: so when does gtk+ 3.0 come out? :) rodrigo: and a few things missing: gnome-xgl-settings needs some love, and we need to change the gnome-wm launch command hpj: mw: haha suseROCKs: Spreadsheet everything that happens in openSUSE happens WORLDWIDE! Thank you very much. mw: seriously, though, it sounds like there's some interesting thinking and arguing going on in that area hpj: mw: the opinions are very mixed on that cyberorg: i just updated Testing page

Started at --> 19:44 vuntz: hpj: oh, it's mixed? reading planet gnome, I didn't get that feeling **mw modifies the agenda a bit, since it's relevant to us hpj: vuntz: well, we don't want to make a 3.0 for the sake of being able to call it 3.0 hpj: vuntz: we need a list of things to do first, and when the list grows large enough that it warrants ABI breakage, we can start thinking about it Spreadsheet: bye Spreadsheet left the room (quit: "ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.12/2008020121]"). munkii: will the new gnome2.22 composting capabilities require xgl btw? vuntz: munkii: in metacity? hpj: but having periodic, scheduled breakage releases isn't regarded as necessary by most, i think munkii: yep hpj: there are two big cool things going on at the hackfest: mw: it sounded to me like a lot of future-proofing could start to happen without breaking anything hpj: introspection and GSettings/GVariant/DConf vuntz: hpj: would be great to have minutes from non-imendio people ;-) vuntz: munkii: no it shouldn't ivanz: what introspection? hpj: and some less groundbreaking things (by now), like GVFS and Webkit ivanz: one can already inrospect properties? what more would you need munkii: vuntz: NOICE! hpj: well, the introspection stuff seems kinda diffuse to me (and others i've talked to) hpj: they want an IDL that generates C headers, documentation, and language bindings automatically vuntz: mw: (btw, I tried updating the metacity package, and it failed somewhere -- but we need to remove the --disable-compositing configure flag there) hpj: so they'd be chewing off a lot if they get around to doing it mw: vuntz: ok, i'll have a poke at it in a little while hpj: desrt attended their meetings and says they argue a lot and haven't been able to resolve some basic differences hpj: the DConf stuff, on the other hand, seems to be happening ivanz: hpj: that's HORRIBLE! ivanz: worse thing ever hpj: it's like a faster GConf with a more capable API ivanz: (refering to IDL) ivanz: if they make that I am going back to windows hpj: and GSettings is an application configuration database interface that lives at GLib level hpj: i think that's kinda cool rodrigo: hpj: is the plan to have KDE use it also? hpj: i don't know hpj: it'll be glib-based, obviously hpj: so i'm not sure KDE'd be interested hpj: it'll replace GConf long-term vuntz: hpj: is mclasen happy with it? at some gtk+ meeting, he was a bit disappointed because it wasn't what he expected hpj: but it can run in parallel furing a transition period vuntz: or maybe I'm misremembering hpj: desrt says tim janik OK'd it vuntz: ok mw: hpj: are you going to blog about some of this stuff? hpj: there's a lot more going on hpj: mw: maybe - others have been saying a lot of the relevant stuff on PGO suseROCKs: mw hpj blogged about skiing. What more do we want from him? hpj: but I might do a summary hpj: when i get back home and have time and peace of mind to think mw: hpj: nod, but as vuntz says, it seems kind of inmedio-specific so far vuntz: hpj: anything especialling interesting about webkit? vuntz: especially vuntz: man vuntz: I need new fingers. Or new brain hpj: vuntz: nah, what i saw was mostly an introduction on how to use it from GTK hpj: vuntz: with GTK widget wrappers and such mw: anyway, suserocks tells me he needs to get going soon, so we're going to promote him hpj: go go

Started at --> 19:54 mw: suseROCKs: the ball is in your court suseROCKs: ... bump up... bump up... Not a promotion! suseROCKs: ok 1) the usual yada yada... You guys staying on top of your tasks? If they need to be removed, please do so... yada yada... munkii: suseROCKs: awesome review suseROCKs: and 2) I have gotten very little feedback from anyone regarding the extended use of RTM/Tasky for testing purposes. munkii: I say we do both, and make everybody happy suseROCKs: I just now found it easy to copy AI's here and paste them directly into Tasky. So that's nice munkii: the problem would be syncing with the wiki mw: munkii: nod suseROCKs: No way to "both". There's no way it will remain syncrhonous mw: munkii: we can add a redirect or link... mw: munkii: i was also wondering about using one of rtm's exporters and then turning that into wiki syntax mw: s/wiki/mediawiki/, of course jony: a RSS/ATOM plugin for the wiki can do the trick .. suseROCKs: well the problem with remaining on RTM is the "cumbersome-ability" of getting new members into the fray. suseROCKs: jony you can add tasks via RSS plugin? mw: suseROCKs: no, but you can at least review them, i guess jony: suseROCKs, oh .. no .. but it can display the task list from rtm suseROCKs: the display part might be nice. Assuming RTM supports RSS jony: suseROCKs, it has ATOM. suseROCKs: vuntz speak up! munkii: it does vuntz: suseROCKs: well, you know my opinion :-) mw: vuntz: i don't **suseROCKs lives several miles from the forest where they buried the radioactive material from the first atom bomb... vuntz: personnally, I'm fine with a solution where I can read tasks without any new account suseROCKs: vuntz but you still need an account to add/modify/comment on tasks. vuntz: (I won't be able to create new tasks or update tasks without a RTM account, though) munkii: but we are not the ones controlling opensuse wiki setup (heck I've been trying to get them to update their CSS for months), so how are we planing to achieve that? vuntz: so it all depends on who we expect to create/edit tasks vuntz: if it's only a few people, then rtm can be fine. If it's everybody out there, I think we'll have to change in the long term to lower the barrier suseROCKs: vuntz we're each suppose to maintain our own tasks, however, during meetngs, one person grabs the AI's and posts them. mw: vuntz: sure. editing tasks in te wiki was a pretty big barrier too, though. hub: vuntz: I did submitpac in telepathy-glib mw: vuntz: i for one was very lax about doing it because it was such a PITA vuntz: suseROCKs: I mean, if I get a task, I can ask you to edit it ;-) rodrigo: yeah, for that reason, bugzilla seems to be the best place, if we can have an easy access from tasque/tasky/whatever it's called this minute :) hub: vuntz: I'll do it on libtelepathy when ssh stop hanging vuntz: mw: yeah, a wiki is bad for this too... suseROCKs: AI: Vuntz to not ask suseROCKs to edit tasks **hub apologize for the interruption mw: anyway, we won't resolve this right now. nothing that really fits all our criteria is presenting itself suseROCKs: can we create a form on the task page that people can write to? vuntz: honestly, right now, the best thing to do is to stay with rtm suseROCKs: rather than knowing wiki syntax? mw: suseROCKs: so, anything else before we turn the mic over to Scott? vuntz: since it's what is the best for the current people suseROCKs: mw yes an answer to my last question ... suseROCKs: Would creating a form for tasks on the wiki work? vuntz: suseROCKs: it'd probably require hacking a bit the wiki, which I guess we can't do mw: if it were easy to update them, tick them off, redelegate them, etc etc, then i guess so munkii: suseROCKs: I don't know if mediawiki supports forms rodrigo: suseROCKs: and how would you get notifications for your task? creating a new page for each task ? suseROCKs: something to investigate for the long term. mw: but making that sort of change to the wiki: a) we don't know how to do it, b) requires cooperationg from a bunch of other people suseROCKs: Rodrigo. You would go to each task assignee's home and inform them of task updates. **vuntz might leave soon suseROCKs: ok I guess that's all for now on this topic. MW take it back mw: ok mw: sreeves: ! suseROCKs: bye all

Started at --> 20:06 sreeves: sorry I just had to join another meeting vuntz: heh sreeves: there will be a new PK release hopefully today mw: sreeves: nice sreeves: it has some nice new features like the update system will actually work onw sreeves: and the list should be correct - non dups and missing items better mw: sreeves: btw, the new intltool has been submitted but is pending acceptance. so you might want to build it (/work/src/done/NOARCH/intltool) and use some --prefer-rpms fu rather than patch it sreeves: ok very nice sreeves: sorry - have to talk in this other meeting, bye mw: bye :) rodrigo: sreeves: you probably should add PK to the testing page :) mw: rodrigo: te toca mw: AI: sreeves Add PK to the testing page

Started at --> 20:09 rodrigo: As previously, patch upstreaming goes slow, but no stop :) mw: for my part it's already been pretty helpful rodrigo: I came to some packages, like gtk2, with a custom organization of patches, so federico1, could you please do the tagging there yourself? mw: it's great dropping 4 or 5 patches in one go, which i've been able to do a few times already vuntz: didn't have time to do anything useful for this rodrigo: yeah, I always am able to remove a few patches vuntz: just noticed that I could remove a few patches from packages I updated :-) rodrigo: well, I see the patch upstreaming as a long term project, so just tag/upstream as you work on your packages mw: right mw: i wonder if we could do something whereby a package without a tagged patch gets rejected vuntz: we should probably do this for new patches rodrigo: mw: yeah! that would be next step, when we have all patches tagged rodrigo: although not sure if that would affect non-gnome packages vuntz: but for old patches, it might be hard, since it means getting stuck for some time ;-) rodrigo: but we can surely run the patchlint plugin on packages before submitting mw: rodrigo: i've inquired into asking the autobuild team to apply some stricter rules to our packages already but didn't get too far mw: rodrigo: i also want to be stricter about our changelog entries rodrigo: vuntz: yeah, that's why it goes slow, figuring out what the patches really fix is time consuming rodrigo: mw: in what way? mw: rodrigo: well, the ideal is that you can use a changelog entry to reconstruct what the package was like before, but many changelogs don't fit that criterion mw: if there's a silly typo, then sure "fix build" is fine mw: but if you add a patch, then it definitely needs to be explained better rodrigo: yeah vuntz: mw: yeah, would be great to document each change in the changelog mw: AI: maw Investigate further how to be more picky about our checkins. mw: rodrigo: ok, anything else? rodrigo: no, nothing else mw: btw, the build service has support for some of that in the works. something like a submission mechanism instead of a plain ol' commit. so that might make it easier for us mw: so there's our theme covered for the week ;)

Started at --> 20:17 mw: i'm not really sure what those days would entail -- anyone have a better idea? mw: the agenda suggests 2 days for each vuntz: I think captain_magnus added them to the agenda munkii: first week of April mw: captain_magnus: stop skolling VBs and help us out here! :) vuntz: policy review: the goal is to review all the changes in the default config we're doing vuntz: to see if we really have good reasons to stay different from upstream vuntz: and document this mw: hmmmm mw: do we want to do that on irc? MDK: small rant... why some packages in gnome stable come without -debuginfo? vuntz: pattern review: the goal is to review what gets installed on a default openSUSE GNOME install MDK: (like gtk) vuntz: mw: I don't think we want to do this on IRC. Should be a wiki page, I guess mw: i was thinking maybe one email thread per deviation (or type of deviation) from upstream, to our mailing list, cc the factory mailing list, with followups set to just our list vuntz: or by mail, yes rodrigo: yes munkii: MDK: most of them are available in the official debug repo mw: ok. who should send the mails? mw: whoever knows the most about the packages in question? federico1: rodrigo: sorry, was distracted - yeah, do I only need to tag the gtk2 patches in 11.0? rodrigo: federico1: yes, only for 11.0 MDK: munkii: well, not for gtk... trying to zyp -debuginfo for gtk offers me a gtk downgrade cyberorg: Desktop pattern might need to be expanded to include ccsm, simple-ccsm and libcompizconfig federico1: rodrigo: cool, will do mw: federico1: it's probably good form to tag new patches applied to older distros, but don't go out of your way to tag preëxisting ones MDK: some packages in gnome stable seem to have -debuginfo but it looks pretty random cyberorg: *"Desktop Effects" if there is such a pattern mw: MDK: can you wait till we get to Q&A? it won't be long now federico1: mw: yeah; I try to tag all of my new patches MDK: mw: sure, sorry federico1: mw: sometimes I forget to put in the tag comment, but all my patches definitely have a name like gtk2-bncXXXX-bgoYYYY-blahblah.diff pjoul: hi! what is the name of the network init script in suse? mw: federico1: yeah, that's ok vuntz: have to leave, sorry mw: ok rodrigo: so, the policy/pattern review needs more than 2 days each, so should we just do it on the mailing list and on a wiki page with the status? mw: rodrigo: yeah, getting back to that :) mw: rodrigo: yes, i think that's the way to go mw: AI: send mails soliciting feedback about our Desktop and Pattern policies mw: Q&A time

Started at --> 20:27 mw: pjoul: it's /etc/init.d/network MDK: mw: ok, so what's the policy about -debuginfo packages in opensuse/opensuse-gnome? rodrigo: cyberorg: you should point to the factory 1-click install in the Testing page, right? mw: pjoul: a suse-specific (i think) alternative is /sbin/rcnetwork -- but i prefer /etc/init.d because it's common across distros rodrigo: cyberorg: that is, we want it tested mostly in FACTORY, right? cyberorg: rodrigo, sorry, missed that pjoul: mw: thanks mw: MDK: so, we have a separate repo for -debuginfo packages that correpond to the initial release of a distro mw: MDK: it's an open bug that errata don't also have corresponding -debuginfo packages mw: (anyone know that bug # offhand?) MDK: ah, ok MDK: yesterday I got glibc update which also doesn't have corresponding -debuginfo mw: MDK: as for packages from the build service, such as those in GNOME:STABLE, GNOME:Community, etc, it is a package-by-package thing MDK: having glibc without -debuginfo is kinda... PITA mw: MDK: packages whose .spec file contains "%debug_package" in the right place will have corresponding -debuginfo packages MDK: so esentially, it's up to "quality assurance" of the packagers? mw: for build service packages, yes mw: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=233122 is the bug in question bugbot: openSUSE bug 233122 in openSUSE 10.3 (Basesystem) "no debuginfo packages for fixed packages" [Major,Needinfo] munkii: it seems like most of the new features in gnome2.22 have been talked about here earlier, exactly how much of gnome's code is being contributed by novell? cyberorg: rodrigo, added both rodrigo: cyberorg: cool, thanks mw: munkii: more than some of our Esteemed Competitors, anyway :) mw: i don't know if there's an accurate breakdown, though munkii: good :) mw: anyone else with questions? munkii: yeah, whatever happened to jpr? rodrigo: holidays mw: munkii: he's on vacation this week munkii: ah, ok mw: anyway, sorry about the missing theme. mw: http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/Roadmap has some information munkii: what missing theme? MDK: very general idea, how about moonlight desklets? I mean, future. rodrigo: np, we'll do it next meeting :) mw: munkii: we were supposed to have someone from the build service team drop by munkii: ok, let's wrap this up then mw: anyone with an answer for MDK's question? **mw doesn't know, sorry MDK: well, I just wanted to drop the idea MDK: ML is coming to 11 MDK: so we could come up with something now or for future munkii: about debuginfo packages? Meeting ended at --> 20:36

• AI: cyberorg and rodrigo to add compiz/fusion to the Testing page
• AI: maw add pulseaudio to the list of platform packages on the spreadsheet
• AI: suseROCKs implement your suggestion
• AI: suseROCKs SHUT UP!!!
• AI: Vuntz to not ask suseROCKs to edit tasks
• AI: sreeves Add PK to the testing page
• AI: maw Investigate further how to be more picky about our checkins.
• AI: send mails soliciting feedback about our Desktop and Pattern policies