Meetings/Community Meeting 2007-02-11/transcript

From openSUSE

[20:05:10] <@benJIman> Well, time to make a start.
[20:05:19] <@benJIman> Welcome everyone, to the second openSUSE community meeting. For the agenda see http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Community_Meeting_2007-02-11 .
[20:05:45] <@benJIman> The first item is openSUSE-community.org , which I think apokryphos is going to cover
[20:06:08] <@apokryphos> In the last meeting we had a long discussion about documentation spread over many resources
[20:06:39] <@apokryphos> there was a general dislike of the way in which additional sources were handled; opensuse.org should (in theory) be the source for all documentation, but this is not always possible for codecs, etc
[20:06:57] <@apokryphos> So opensuse-community.org was created, and so far it's been received pretty well
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[20:07:34] <@apokryphos> we've had nearly 20,000 hits in the first few weeks, and we managed to get a bit of nice publicity for it in a few places. There are also a few nice documents floating around
[20:08:21] <@apokryphos> Now, we did suggest that we wouldn't overlap or go over things that could go onto opensuse.org. This is so that there isn't a duplication of effort and that the new user knows that in general they have one (or at most two) sources to check for what they need
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[20:08:54] <@apokryphos> One problem with this so far: a lot of people have explicitly not contributed to opensuse.org because the generla consensus is that stuff there is a bit of a mess
[20:09:21] <@apokryphos> If we're going to be serious about documentation, and resources for a new user, this has to be sorted out
[20:09:59] <@apokryphos> We shouldn't be in the situation where users specifically don't like (in many cases) looking around the openSUSE.org wiki
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[20:10:26] <@apokryphos> So, first perhaps -- what do people dislike most about it at this point?
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[20:11:26] <kkathman> apokryphos: I think you hit on it... when you have a topic, right now you have to go to 2 places maybe. Is it possible that we could get "forwarding" pages to allow things in community to Point to the opensuse wiki?
[20:11:31] <@benJIman> I think it is actually pretty good compared to many similar project wikis, It has a lot of content, much of which has been migrated from resources such as the SDB, challenges now are primarily organisation and quality control I would say
[20:12:05] <AlbertoP> it's difficult to find what you need imo...also searching it's quite hard
[20:12:10] <@benJIman> kkathman: There are interwiki links possible already, The idea is not to have things on opensuse-community.org where they could be on opensuse.org instead
[20:12:13] <@apokryphos> kkathman: yes! This is one of the things we set up last week. We've got an interwiki setup with o-c.o so that i.e. opensuse:SomeThing on the community website takes you to the article on o.o
[20:12:32] <@benJIman> Google does now index opensuse.org quite well, site:opensuse.org yields far better results than the in wiki search
[20:12:50] <kkathman> thats great...it will just take some time I think like most wiki's
[20:12:56] <@apokryphos> benJIman: yeah, Organisation and Quality Control are certainly key
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[20:13:09] <@apokryphos> this is not a small job
[20:13:31] <sPiN> benJIman, media wiki search is really poor.
[20:13:40] <@benJIman> I don't think there's anything specific that can be done to improve it, it just requires people to spend time working on it, which there are a lot of people doing already, it will just take time
[20:13:52] <sPiN> and google doesn't index it better so much as they just recently changed what they allow the public to see
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[20:14:05] <@apokryphos> benJIman: I'm not sure there are that many quality control people who actively look around
[20:14:09] <sPiN> before they limited results because they were worried about people trying to game the system
[20:14:18] <@apokryphos> at least, I know there are one or two, but not much is covered
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[20:14:45] <@apokryphos> sPiN: organisation is key, then, as in any wiki
[20:14:58] <kkathman> are there "owners" of each wiki page or is it just "open" to the public to change and add on (curious)
[20:15:04] <@apokryphos> for most wikis I've seen it's the case that there are many popular articles, which everyone refers to. That's how things should be.
[20:15:12] <@benJIman> kkathman: open to people with ichain accounts
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[20:15:21] <sPiN> yep, the only way around it is to organize info so that people do not have to use the search they can just drill down through topics
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[20:15:52] <@apokryphos> Yeah, the only problem is this is not a trivial issue, and I do not think it will ever be overcome without a few really dedicated people/team
[20:16:16] <kkathman> apokryphos: and topic organization and accountability to an extent
[20:16:26] <@apokryphos> right
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[20:16:43] <sPiN> an information architect is needed...
[20:16:48] <@benJIman> There is a wiki mailing list, I think the wiki guys are doing a great job so far, it's just a question of man hours.
[20:17:02] <@apokryphos> there is an "indexing project" which was partly made to solve this issue, but needless to say I'm not sure we can maintain that it was successful
[20:17:12] <sPiN> and i dont see anyone with that skillset taking on such a massive job for free... its just too much unless someone can devote a 9-5 to it
[20:17:21] <@apokryphos> benJIman: not very active at all, though, and when issues do come up they're generally style issues.
[20:18:27] <@apokryphos> I think it was the case that people were dedicated at the beginning, but now it's grown so big that it's so unattractive to many people
[20:18:39] <sPiN> i agree with that apokryphos
[20:18:45] <kkathman> agrred
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[20:18:51] <kkathman> agreed I mean :)
[20:19:15] <@benJIman> I'm not sure there's anything discussion now can achieve though.
[20:19:19] <@apokryphos> yeah
[20:19:27] <sPiN> i dont know about that...
[20:19:28] <kkathman> benJIman: took the words out of my mouth
[20:19:30] <@apokryphos> perhaps we can only really try to raise some awareness about this
[20:19:47] <@apokryphos> I know I'm going to start doing some more organisation
[20:20:17] <sPiN> we can decided some next actions... and i think that means finding an info architect to reorganize, setup naming conventions etc
[20:20:37] <kkathman> apokryphos: perhaps a start would be to just start taking very popular topics...hits.. and assign some owners?
[20:20:58] <kkathman> the ol 80-20 rule (or even 90-10)
[20:21:12] <sPiN> for example. a giving topic can have a landing page that has links to specific versions
[20:21:18] <mvidner> well, how about the title page saying something about how to help improving the wiki by organizing the content?
[20:21:46] <@apokryphos> that sounds nice
[20:21:51] <@benJIman> The vast majority of topics don't change significantly from version to version
[20:22:00] <kkathman> sure that seems an obvious 1st step :)
[20:22:02] <@apokryphos> benJIman: but there's a whole horde of dated docs still
[20:22:03] <@benJIman> There are SDB articles from 7.x and 8.x that are just as relevant today
[20:22:23] <@benJIman> Dated is different to inaccurate.
[20:22:26] <@apokryphos> and many people would also presume 8.x instructions aren't, even if they are sometimes
[20:22:53] <@apokryphos> I think a similar idea to what wikipedia does about "clearing up an article" might be a good call
[20:23:02] <sPiN> benJIman, sure, so tasks that dont change would be listed on the landing page for that topic as this applies to 9.x-10.1 and such
[20:23:08] <@apokryphos> that way we raise awareness, and maybe get a few more people onto the opensuse-wiki team
[20:23:10] <mvidner> for example on a few occasions i categorized some yast pages, but did not realize that i should look at http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/
[20:23:11] <@benJIman> There's something to be said for version agnostic documentation, not least that adding a choose version step is just another obstacle in getting to the content.
[20:23:23] <kkathman> apokryphos: yeah in that case rather than versioning, we should "de-version" some things too
[20:23:30] <@apokryphos> indeed
[20:23:46] <@benJIman> The main document as the "currently valid" instructions, with links to information specific to older versions might be better
[20:24:10] <cb400f> if necessary
[20:24:14] <sPiN> benJIman, that works
[20:24:15] <kkathman> right
[20:24:40] <@apokryphos> Ok, so general reorganisation. Shall we raise the topic of having the "This article has been suggested for a cleanup" type of idea on the opensuse-wiki list?
[20:24:47] <kkathman> benJIman: yeah thats kinda what I meant by de-versioning... make it exception based if needed
[20:24:57] <@apokryphos> It'd be nice to know this for sure now, but some of the key contributors aren't here, and their input is important
[20:25:03] <@apokryphos> sorry AlbertoP :P
[20:25:05] <@benJIman> Ok, who's going to raise that?
[20:25:11] <sPiN> not it
[20:25:11] <@benJIman> kkathman: I agree
[20:25:34] <kkathman> apokryphos: are you more or less heading up the doc team then?
[20:25:38] AlbertoP is here: he has 1000 eyes ^^
[20:25:42] <@benJIman> Deafening silence.
[20:25:48] <@apokryphos> kkathman: nono
[20:25:51] <@apokryphos> but I will try to help
[20:26:10] <kkathman> well I'll help too, please let me know how...I worked on the kubuntu doc team way back when
[20:26:11] apokryphos proposes mvidner, as it was his good idea :P
[20:26:25] <@benJIman> apokryphos: well you or mvidner can do it
[20:26:40] <oc2pus> a proposal: linux-club.de is creating a wiki at the moment, perhaps they can deliver some content
[20:26:44] <@benJIman> moving on, you were going to discuss licence for material on poensuse-community.org ?
[20:26:54] <sPiN> i dont know how perms are setup on O.o but someone needs to go in and start cutting docs out. less is more
[20:27:08] <oc2pus> there is already a lot of info, espacially for beryl, codecs, multimedia etc
[20:27:20] <@benJIman> oc2pus: We were trying to consolodate the large number of wikis down into the two, opensuse.org and opensuse-community.org
[20:27:29] <cb400f> oc2pus: is that a SUSE-wiki? or general Linux?
[20:27:43] <oc2pus> its mostpart SuSE
[20:27:48] <@apokryphos> using content from other locations and combining them is certainly one of the aims
[20:28:11] <@benJIman> It's not about the amount of content though, it's about the quality.
[20:28:32] <AlbertoP> I still have a doubt: why two wikis?
[20:28:47] <cb400f> I suppose it's german?
[20:28:47] <@benJIman> AlbertoP: the second for content which cannot be added to opensuse.org due to legal reasons
[20:28:49] <@apokryphos> AlbertoP: second for the stuff that can't go on the first. i.e. codecs, guru/packman tutorials, etc
[20:29:01] <oc2pus> the quality of linux-club is very high .. I've moderated a long time there
[20:29:20] <@apokryphos> yeah, taking a quick look at it, some of the stuff looks very nicely arranged and done
[20:29:27] <AlbertoP> ok, but if a link can't be on opensuse.org, it will just make things messy...imo it's better to clean opensuse.org and move to the other
[20:29:28] <@benJIman> oc2pus: Would you contact the owners about opensuse-community.org ?
[20:29:53] <cb400f> and de.opensuse.org
[20:30:07] <oc2pus> ok, I can contact some admins from linux-club.de
[20:30:11] <@apokryphos> awesome
[20:30:35] <@benJIman> apokryphos: did you find out whether we can link to opensuse-community.org from opensuse.org ?
[20:30:40] <@apokryphos> centralisation of documentation is really important, I think. If it's on de.o.o or on o-c.o their help and contributions can get to a LOT Of new users, which would be really nice :)
[20:30:57] <@apokryphos> benJIman: only really for a link, not to specifically say about codecs
[20:31:06] <@benJIman> That's good enough
[20:31:07] <@apokryphos> (I presume; haven't spoken to anyone about it though)
[20:31:19] <@apokryphos> someone added a link to it a few weeks back, in fact :P
[20:31:29] <kkathman> i think we're drifting a little bit
[20:31:48] <@benJIman> unification is on topic.
[20:31:59] <@benJIman> But we should move on, apokryphos you were going to talk about email addresses and licences.
[20:32:04] <kkathman> right
[20:32:19] <@apokryphos> Ok, email addresses:
[20:32:41] <@apokryphos> there have been long discussions in the past about distinguished/ardent openSUSE community people getting @opensuse.org addresses
[20:33:04] <@apokryphos> considering the nature of openSUSE (a community distribution!) I think that is very important, and many Novell guys agreed to this
[20:33:24] <@apokryphos> one problem: there was no way agreed on for users to maintain these, and I don't think there is an obvious way. Which is a big issue.
[20:33:56] <@apokryphos> other distros handle this (debian, ubuntu) by having councils where users present and show themselves off. I think this is a real extreme, and not really a good idea at all for openSUSE. So what do we do?
[20:34:32] <kkathman> i do agree with that assessment apokryphos
[20:34:56] <@apokryphos> I'm not sure that waiting around for ages (as has been done so far), but I think it's important that we have some type of evident solidarity/team-type of image
[20:35:32] <@benJIman> Well I don#t think that @opensuse-community.org email addresses make any sense, exactly the same heirarchical issues are present whatever the domain name
[20:35:37] <@apokryphos> and a few people have suggested that we have @opensuse-community.org. I believe this would be technically quite possible (sPiN, our weblord can clarify), and avoids several technicalities
[20:36:21] <@benJIman> All it does is changes who is in charge, It doesn't change the problem.
[20:36:25] <@apokryphos> benJIman: we could have a few very obvious core community people be around at the top, and addresses can be given out at their discretion
[20:36:39] <@apokryphos> hm
[20:36:47] <@benJIman> We could do that with opensuse.org too, Novell people have said that before
[20:37:08] <kkathman> I'll throw this out - what about a "jouuse the journeyman or mentor approach
[20:37:13] <kkathman> oops
[20:37:15] <kkathman> lol
[20:37:19] <@benJIman> kkathman: please explain.
[20:37:31] <kkathman> well building on what apokryphos said
[20:37:34] <@benJIman> The only workable option I'd thought of was a request system like we have currently for build service accounts.
[20:37:42] <kkathman> some of the more prominent people have the addies first
[20:37:51] <kkathman> those people could mentor 2-3 people
[20:37:55] <kkathman> or whatever their load
[20:38:04] <kkathman> those people become journeymen
[20:38:08] <@apokryphos> benJIman: how do they determine who gets one?
[20:38:21] <kkathman> when the mentor thinks its time...they can ok the addie
[20:38:22] <@apokryphos> I guess they provide some information on why they need it/how they'd use it
[20:38:36] <@benJIman> apokryphos: at their own discretion , as currently I suppose.
[20:39:00] <sPiN> people that make large contributions of time and effort to suse should have @opensuse.org
[20:39:10] <@benJIman> kkathman: that could work
[20:39:13] <@apokryphos> an "at their own discretion" method I would really like, since it escapes the problems of a clear and justifiable "council"
[20:39:19] <sPiN> i personally dont care if i have one, but i know some people that do
[20:39:32] <kkathman> I think it needs to be a combination of need and time commitment
[20:39:39] <@apokryphos> I think it's important as an expression of a community distribution. Else it isn't, really.
[20:40:01] <@benJIman> kkathman: I suppose it would start with Novell employes who already have them then.
[20:40:16] cb400f still dreams of a jabber-server @opensuse.org
[20:40:20] <@apokryphos> would a few Novell employees by happy to do this?
[20:40:26] <kkathman> benJIman: perhaps, but then you have a separate "need" for the community, I think
[20:40:27] <@apokryphos> *be
[20:40:35] <sPiN> since none of us get any sort of monetary compensation, an @O.o is the least that could be done
[20:40:37] <kkathman> i.e. refer back to the documentation issues
[20:40:40] <@benJIman> kkathman: You could propose it on the list, there is bound to be disagreement though
[20:40:40] <sPiN> it just needs to be a forwarder
[20:40:55] <kkathman> oh Im sure
[20:41:06] AlbertoP doesn't see the problem of addresses. Why users don't use gmail and are happy?
[20:41:06] <sPiN> didnt yaloki raise this topic a few times?
[20:41:25] <sPiN> if anyone deserves the @O.o its him.
[20:41:25] <@benJIman> sPiN: yes, afaik kkathman's specific proposal wasn't suggested before though.
[20:41:28] <@apokryphos> AlbertoP: a community distribution isn't really one if something as simple as the domain's addresses can't be used by the community.
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[20:41:52] <kkathman> benJIman: its a working proposal...i didnt mean for it to be a rigid suggestion :)
[20:41:54] <@apokryphos> I think we should raise this on a list, and those who think it's important really battle for it
[20:42:03] <@benJIman> ok , let's move on
[20:42:09] <AlbertoP> apokryphos, sorry but it's just a formal thing, while problems are others. Like the really small community which is not growing ;-)
[20:42:12] <@benJIman> Content licences.
[20:42:13] <@apokryphos> so, kkathman to raise it on the list? =)
[20:42:20] <sPiN> someone keeping notes on what is decided here?
[20:42:28] <@benJIman> I am, and logs
[20:42:32] <sPiN> good deal
[20:42:35] <kkathman> I will, but only if we get some consensus here that its worth raising?
[20:42:44] <@apokryphos> definitely worth raising
[20:42:47] <kkathman> im not sure we have that?
[20:42:50] <@benJIman> It is worth raising again,been a while since last
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[20:42:53] <sartek> apokryphos: sure .. but first of all _we_ need a community before talking about email addresses
[20:42:57] <sPiN> umm not to get too off topic, but the meeting was set for 20UTC right?
[20:42:58] <cb400f> worth raising
[20:43:04] <@apokryphos> kkathman: maybe throw the text to us before it's sent in o-c.o if you like, to see if we can get something working.
[20:43:07] <sPiN> didnt it start a couple hours early?
[20:43:22] <kkathman> apokryphos: we can discuss offline
[20:43:24] <@apokryphos> sartek: there is certainly a community. Else what is this meeting? ;-)
[20:43:27] <@apokryphos> kkathman: cool
[20:43:44] <@apokryphos> sartek: it's just fragmented 8)
[20:43:50] <sartek> apokryphos: :P
[20:43:56] <@benJIman> Ok can we please move on to licence now.
[20:44:09] <AlbertoP> apokryphos, really...I think the "community" is not attacting anyone...and it's the biggest issue
[20:44:14] <AlbertoP> yes sorry benJIman
[20:44:21] <@apokryphos> let's do it. Tell us, benJIman
[20:44:56] <@benJIman> A decision needs to be made as to what licence to require content on opensuse-community.org to be under
[20:45:20] <@benJIman> Some wikis use GFDL, but that licence isn't really free enough, gives problems for translations etc.
[20:45:39] <sPiN> CC2.5
[20:45:52] <@benJIman> CC share alike seems sensible to me
[20:46:14] <kkathman> CC2.5 seems the most applicable and free?
[20:46:15] <sPiN> for those that dont know, http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/
[20:46:29] <@benJIman> Why non-commercial?
[20:46:59] <sPiN> well do we want someone to take our work and make a book to sell?
[20:47:04] <@benJIman> Why not?
[20:47:14] <sPiN> because they didnt write it?
[20:47:16] <@benJIman> It doesn't stop you from doing it too
[20:47:27] <cb400f> .. and they have to give credit
[20:47:45] <kkathman> and there's a permission clause too I think
[20:47:47] <sPiN> yeah but there are people that try to profit by doing such things and i do not want that
[20:48:13] <@benJIman> I don't see a problem with people profiting from it, that's what Free software is all about
[20:48:25] <cb400f> I vote for allow commercial too
[20:48:37] <sPiN> i do not.
[20:48:55] <Hanni> +-+
[20:49:03] <kkathman> where's the remedy tho sPiN ?
[20:49:12] <@apokryphos> I can't really foresee a situation where I'd be annoyed by seeing any documentation of mine in a book, so allowing commercial seems good
[20:49:25] <@benJIman> sPiN: how does it hurt you if someone makes money from your work.
[20:49:26] <kkathman> if someone DOES take the content and publishes it who's gonna pursue the case?
[20:49:34] adrianS has the opinion that commercial use is not evil, but contributions should made back -> GFDL
[20:49:40] <sPiN> benJIman, because it is sleezy
[20:50:10] <sPiN> people that have nothing to do with suse nor contribute a damn thing could come in take the work and profit from it
[20:50:11] <cb400f> adrianS: CC has share-alike.. not good enough?
[20:50:16] <@apokryphos> sPiN: hm, not if you have to attribute. Like openSUSE. Would you mind if people were selling DVDs of openSUSE, really?
[20:50:18] <@benJIman> sPiN: and, it doesn't hurt you
[20:50:37] <sPiN> i dont see that as the question
[20:50:42] <sPiN> i think it is unethical
[20:50:44] <@benJIman> http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_001 is why debian rejected GFDL
[20:50:52] <kkathman> benJIman: I agree, you and I dont profit from it in the first place, so there's no harm
[20:50:54] <@benJIman> I think it is unethical to restrict it to non-commercial.
[20:51:09] <adrianS> cb400f: GFDL is stronger, because additions to the article must be free again, you have to be mentioned in the commercial version (book), but the book author can anyway add propietaere sections
[20:51:26] <cb400f> hmm
[20:51:43] <adrianS> GFDL does not stop anyone from making a book, there are just some rules ...
[20:51:55] <@benJIman> It allows proprietary sections though
[20:52:03] <@benJIman> which cause issues.
[20:52:13] <kkathman> lol the best way in the long run to stop that issue, is to have the opensuse-project publish the book and give it away :)
[20:52:35] <sPiN> ok... so ill just throw together a book, find a print on demand service, and make some $$$ off all of your contributions then? and you guys are fine with that?
[20:52:38] <@benJIman> adrianS: CC share alike is stronger than GFDL in that respect
[20:52:53] <@benJIman> adrianS: it requires that derivative works also be licenced under the same licence
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[20:53:01] <@benJIman> sPiN: It doesn't hurt me.
[20:53:13] <@apokryphos> sPiN: I'd probably be quite happy about it.
[20:53:18] <adrianS> benJIman: this is not true with the GFDL ?
[20:53:21] <sPiN> benJIman, someone raping someone you dont know doesnt hurt you either
[20:53:22] <kkathman> If I contribute, I know Im doing so in an open environment, so I have no gripe
[20:53:24] <sPiN> it is still wrong
[20:53:28] <@benJIman> adrianS: no, GFDL allows proprietary sections
[20:53:48] <adrianS> benJIman: afaik only as an option, you can skip that one ...
[20:54:14] <@benJIman> adrianS: in which case you'd be close to the CC licence anyway
[20:54:19] <adrianS> GFDL has two optional sections, which are not really beloved at debian IIRC, but you can not use them
[20:54:23] <sPiN> so the 'doesn't hurt me' argument is a non-sequitor
[20:54:32] <@benJIman> It is documentation for free software.
[20:54:43] <@apokryphos> debian issues raised with gfdl: http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_001
[20:54:55] <@benJIman> The software in the distro must be OSI Complaint, why should the documentation impose further restrictions
[20:55:05] <@apokryphos> sPiN: it's not the same as your rape scenario since benJIman *would* be one of the people involved
[20:55:20] <@benJIman> Open source licences compliant with OSI may not restrict commercial use.
[20:55:41] <kkathman> sPiN: If we stand for "open" then wouldnt it be inconsistent for us to nail down the documentation?
[20:55:47] <sPiN> well go ahead then... as ive said i wont be contributing anyway
[20:55:52] <@apokryphos> I don't think there's any problem with commercial use, if the other sections of the license are respected
[20:56:01] <@apokryphos> this is the same as most Linux distributions
[20:56:59] <oc2pus> who is owning the docs ?
[20:57:01] <kkathman> there are lots of commerical books on ubuntu, debian, suse, etc
[20:57:06] <oc2pus> I guess we all ...
[20:57:26] <oc2pus> but who will decide which part is owned by whom ?
[20:57:38] <oc2pus> so why worry, about license ?
[20:57:49] <oc2pus> take CC-2.5
[20:57:49] <sPiN> there are several suse related sites with docs that will not be able to be used on the wiki because of licensing
[20:57:50] <@benJIman> We can have a policy that all documentation added is licenced under a particular licence
[20:58:05] <@benJIman> oc2pus: It is an issue if it puts people off contributing, or overly restricts the usage.
[20:58:21] <@apokryphos> sPiN: that's an issue, for sure. But we can't really overcome that.
[20:58:21] <oc2pus> yes, so make it easy
[20:58:29] <oc2pus> otherwise nobody will contribute
[20:58:31] <sPiN> my site included
[20:58:57] <sPiN> yep, its an impass for sure
[20:59:10] <@apokryphos> oc2pus: do you think that issue raises a problem with any license?
[20:59:12] <oc2pus> we are talking about a wiki, there are no secrects or patents
[20:59:23] <oc2pus> yust information
[20:59:32] <@apokryphos> yeah
[20:59:37] <@benJIman> Perhaps it warrants further discussion on the mailing list.
[20:59:39] <oc2pus> and the most part of those information can be found with google
[20:59:47] <oc2pus> we don't invent new things
[20:59:53] <sPiN> oc2pus, the problem there is that a lot of info is bad.
[20:59:57] <@apokryphos> benJIman: or shall we put it to a vote?
[21:00:02] <@benJIman> apokryphos: on the list?
[21:00:02] <oc2pus> we try to make it easy for others
[21:00:04] <sPiN> take jem marantz 'hacking suse articles'
[21:00:18] <kkathman> true its just compilation, which itself can be commericially copyrighted at any time by anyone really :)
[21:00:28] <@apokryphos> benJIman: could do, actually. Discussion for a week and then voting?
[21:00:37] <oc2pus> sPiN: i agree, too much info is bad, but no information is worse
[21:00:52] <oc2pus> and a wiki is regulating by itself
[21:00:58] <@benJIman> Can just do both at once, ok that finishes that topic then.
[21:01:01] <oc2pus> everybody can correct it
[21:01:04] <sPiN> oc2pus, im saying this is the problem with a google search
[21:01:14] <sPiN> oc2pus, and all the more reason to consolidate the wikis
[21:01:22] <oc2pus> yes
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[21:01:35] <@apokryphos> ok, so let's move on
[21:01:41] <@benJIman> Still no yaloki
[21:01:52] <@apokryphos> hm, yeah
[21:02:08] <oc2pus> its to early for Pascal :)
[21:02:14] <sartek> no-one has him phone nr or something?:)
[21:02:26] <@apokryphos> oc2pus: he did say he'd be here an hour ago though :P
[21:02:32] <@benJIman> Let's skip that section for now.
[21:02:58] <oc2pus> he has a family .. he'll come
[21:03:03] <@benJIman> Unifying the community follows on better from what we were just discussing anyway, is there anything anyone wanted to suggest here that we havn't already discussed with wikis and mail
[21:03:25] <sPiN> yep...
[21:03:31] <@benJIman> Go on.
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[21:04:04] <@benJIman> sPiN: ?
[21:04:05] <sPiN> the O-C.o wiki needs to be upgraded... if it is not by 2/19 it will have problems again when the server moves to php 5.2
[21:04:23] <sPiN> while im glad to host it, i will not touch mediawiki again.
[21:04:32] <sPiN> so someone needs to take up that task
[21:05:04] <@benJIman> What does that entail, performing the update with shell access?
[21:05:20] <sPiN> shell and db access i believe
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[21:05:37] <sPiN> but i only took a quick glance at what was required to upgrade it, was disgusted, and left the page
[21:05:48] <kkathman> ouch
[21:06:11] <sPiN> apokryphos, has the access but im not sure if he feels comfortable/wants to do it
[21:06:22] <@apokryphos> ok, we'll see
[21:06:27] <@benJIman> I'll help apokryphos with that if necessary
[21:06:37] <@apokryphos> cool
[21:06:44] <kkathman> I can help also if needed apokryphos
[21:06:47] <@benJIman> Did anyone have any thoughts on unifying the community?
[21:06:49] <bgerber> I may be able to assist as well.
[21:06:53] <sPiN> ok, just so long as everyone knows it needs to be done by 2/19 when the upgrade happens... this is what broke the wiki last week
[21:07:19] <@apokryphos> Regards to unification, I must be brave to raise this... ;-), but do people have any thoughts (since last year) on a unified single openSUSE forum?
[21:07:20] <cb400f> I think we should re-raise the question of a centralized official forum
[21:07:31] <@apokryphos> heh, get out of my head ;-)
[21:07:38] <@apokryphos> kastorff is from suseforums, I believe
[21:07:54] <kkathman> ooooo centralized forums ooooooooo
[21:08:02] <kastorff> yep
[21:08:12] apokryphos rounds up some forum people
[21:08:20] <@benJIman> My opinion on this is that yes it would be a good idea, and SUSE/Novell guys should just set one up, not worry about the fallout
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[21:09:05] <@benJIman> Presumably there would not be excessive moderation , as there isn't on the mailing lists.
[21:09:29] <cb400f> I agree. I understand that it hurts all the little sub-communities.. but all this fragmentation hurts the opensuse-project
[21:09:46] AlbertoP nods
[21:10:01] <kkathman> yep
[21:10:04] adrianS would be glad if some strong and existing forum would request to become the official opensuse.org forum, while they would need to respect that opensuse.org might have the bigger power, if there would be some disagreement
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[21:10:43] <kkathman> if there IS a good, solid forum already, why kill it just to establish a "Novell" one
[21:11:06] <@apokryphos> adrianS: I don't think it should be hosted at any of the current locations
[21:11:08] <@benJIman> There isn't, there are several small fora
[21:11:28] <kkathman> I dunno I guess I always use suseforums, but thats just me :)
[21:11:59] <@apokryphos> adrianS: there was an issue raised about if there would be certain topics (codecs, guru, packman) that wouldn't be allowed to be discussed if the forum was hosted by SUSE guys. Is that true?
[21:12:13] <kkathman> apokryphos: similar problems to ubuntu yes??? this forum issue :)
[21:12:23] <@benJIman> Such topics havn't been censored from the lists, so seems unlikely
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[21:12:37] <adrianS> apokryphos: that is a valid issue, discussion is of course okay, but direct links to binary packages could be a problem
[21:12:40] <@apokryphos> I agree, I don't think there's a reasonable case for censorship on such issues
[21:12:49] <kastorff> wouldn't it make sense to involve those who have contributed to the opensuse community "forum-wise" in the idea of a single forum?
[21:13:25] <cb400f> that's what we're doing now
[21:13:26] <kastorff> ime, the previous dialog about that mostly occurs outside that group
[21:13:27] <@apokryphos> adrianS: why, though? On the lists this is perfectly ok, right?
[21:13:32] <bgerber> I thought this was discussed and no consensus was ever reached
[21:13:36] <@benJIman> Every other major company gets away with declaring the content owned by the commentor and excluding all liability
[21:13:39] <adrianS> what about any intermediate solution, for example to host a web site behind "forum.opensuse.org", claiming that there is no official one, but there the following ones, which are recommended ?
[21:13:41] <kastorff> so who reprsents what forums?
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[21:13:58] <@apokryphos> kastorff: indeed, that's an issue
[21:13:59] <cb400f> kastorff: that's part of the problem, cuz that group doesn't subscribe to mailing lists or go to irc
[21:14:00] <@benJIman> bgerber: it will never be reached , It doesn't mean nothing should be done about it
[21:14:01] <adrianS> apokryphos: theoretically, we could get requested to remove such links also from the ml archive
[21:14:11] <@apokryphos> adrianS: nah, I think the very key issue is of having *one* forum
[21:14:29] <@benJIman> adrianS: declaring one of the existing fora as official would have far greater fallout than setting up your own.
[21:14:36] <kastorff> i monitored mailing lists at one time, and the issue was never brought to me
[21:14:41] <microchip_> I like a central SUSE forum, if the two can merge somehow, that'd be great
[21:14:58] <@apokryphos> benJIman: I think you're right.
[21:15:03] <@apokryphos> kastorff: very valid point
[21:15:07] <kastorff> a lot of folks who weren't involved in forums tried to make a decision and then tell me afterwards...
[21:15:24] <@apokryphos> kastorff: problem with this is that you can't just chuck the different admins of the other forums together.
[21:15:27] <kkathman> apokryphos: please expand on how that would even conceivably happen?? If you mean one "official" forum I understand, but how do you stop people from using the other, already existing forums if they get good results ?
[21:15:35] <bgerber> That is exactly what I meant.
[21:15:38] <adrianS> I do see the following problems with having an official, external forum: for one that opensuse.org (and therefore Novell as main sponsor) is liable for its content and second that people would expect to have the same login mechanism
[21:15:43] <cb400f> kastorff: it was discussed about a year ago.. noone dared bring it up since.. til now
[21:15:49] <@benJIman> kkathman: you don't, you see what happens.
[21:15:53] <@apokryphos> right
[21:15:59] <kastorff> my point is, when have the existing admins from the forums been brought together to discuss the possibility?
[21:15:59] <kkathman> benJIman: right ... exactly
[21:16:00] <bgerber> There is a big cliff between forum users and ml users
[21:16:06] <@apokryphos> kkathman: you can say there's an official forum, and you can have whatever other forums you want.
[21:16:17] <@benJIman> kastorff: yaloki did attempt to do so, but found most of them antagonistic to the idea.
[21:16:18] <kkathman> benJIman: I was agreeing with your point earlier
[21:16:32] <kastorff> i was never asked...
[21:17:02] <kastorff> and i think, correct me if i'm wrong suseforums.net is considered one of the sub-communites?
[21:17:11] <@apokryphos> Should there be a meeting set up for this? That is quite possible.
[21:17:15] <@apokryphos> kastorff: indeed.
[21:17:16] <kkathman> apokryphos: i understand, but my concern, would be in establishing an "official" forum, would we be "de-unifying" instead of unifying ??
[21:17:18] <@benJIman> Yaloki isn't here at present unfortunately
[21:17:24] adrianS sees the need of having some statement on opensuse.org why we do not have a forum so far ...
[21:17:40] <kastorff> i will say for the record, i am not against consolidation
[21:17:40] <@apokryphos> kkathman: that was one of the issues. Thing is, the current pattern is a whole lot of forums all over the place. Where does a new user go? Centralisation is good 8)
[21:17:46] <linux_learner> there are many complications in this
[21:17:57] <linux_learner> this needs to be considered carefully
[21:18:01] <@benJIman> I don't see why any of the existing forum communities have a right to be against suse/novell setting up their own.
[21:18:14] <sPiN> i think if we wanted to involve the other suse forum moderators, and i think we all agree that we would, we would have to offer them some sort of credibility transfer
[21:18:16] <kkathman> apokryphos: agreed, so I like benJIman 's idea of a page that says "Here are some forums"
[21:18:19] <linux_learner> if you choose one, then the others feel left out and offended
[21:18:34] <kastorff> linux_learner is exactly right...there are complications, but afaik, those running the forums have not yet gathered to dialog about it
[21:18:36] <linux_learner> then theres the matter of databases, and who hosts i
[21:18:37] <sPiN> so that they would be moderators in the official forum. im sure these guys do not want to start from scratch building their reputation as a moderator
[21:18:38] <linux_learner> it
[21:18:39] <bgerber> yes very true
[21:18:46] <kkathman> linux_learner: yes that was my de-unification thought
[21:18:50] <@benJIman> linux_learner: so you don't choose one, you provide one,and if people choose to use it it will become the de-facto standard, if not then you can just stop providing it
[21:19:00] <linux_learner> i'm not saying yet benJIman
[21:19:08] <linux_learner> its way complicated
[21:19:15] <linux_learner> and may details have to be worked out
[21:19:16] <adrianS> benJIman: they might have not the right, but a forum needs maintainers and I do not see SuSE currently have the power to maintain actively a large forum 24/7
[21:19:29] <@benJIman> It won't be large overnight
[21:19:35] <kkathman> adrianS: I was just going to raise that manpower issue
[21:19:40] <@apokryphos> adrianS: but forums are communities; the facilitators will come as the users do.
[21:19:40] <bgerber> I think the issue is not offending the existing forums
[21:19:40] <@benJIman> You increase moderator size as the usage grows
[21:19:45] <linux_learner> if this is to work, it must be done with out offending other forums
[21:19:59] <sPiN> linux_learner, not possible.
[21:19:59] <@apokryphos> this is similar to IRC, of course
[21:19:59] <cb400f> impossible
[21:20:06] <kastorff> benJIman, the problem with just creating a new forum, without any attempt at dialog, is that you further fragment the community
[21:20:09] <linux_learner> it is, just dificult as hell
[21:20:13] <@benJIman> linux_learner: this has been proven to be impossible, it has been raised on IRC and the mailing lists numerous times
[21:20:22] <@benJIman> kastorff: there have been attempts at dialogue for the past 2 years
[21:20:29] <cb400f> we need to think longer term.. the people that would be offended are those that don't take part in the project anyway
[21:20:30] <kastorff> not with me...
[21:20:32] <@benJIman> It has been raised on the lists and IRC meetings I don't know how many times
[21:20:39] <sPiN> people like kastorff would have to be given moderator status in the official forum if you want them to contribute
[21:20:42] <@apokryphos> cb400f: right. Long term is important.
[21:20:49] <linux_learner> i know guys, i read and participated in the mailing list last time
[21:20:54] <@apokryphos> sPiN: different forums aren't going to agree on moderators.
[21:20:59] <@apokryphos> I don't think that's a solution
[21:21:03] <kastorff> lists that serve their own purpose, not the forums, i'm afraid...too bad
[21:21:09] <sPiN> apokryphos, well it has to be done...
[21:21:16] <adrianS> kastorff: is there some interesst from your side to become the official opensuse forum ? shall we have a dialog about this "offline" ?
[21:21:20] <@apokryphos> What do guys think about getting a meeting arranged for this, where the forum admins could join together for a discussion?
[21:21:34] <sPiN> kastorff, you agree that if there was a new forum you are not willing to start from scratch to rebuild your moderator status are you?
[21:21:39] <@apokryphos> hopefully we can get some other community people (for general guidance -- 3rd party type of thoughts) and a few Novell guys
[21:21:41] <@benJIman> apokryphos: we did try this before and none turned up
[21:21:51] <@apokryphos> benJIman: how come?
[21:22:00] <kastorff> adrianS, i have no issue with that, but i don't think doing anything without a SERIOUS effort to engage all the fourms is going to work...
[21:22:04] <@benJIman> I don't know. Yaloki was involved.
[21:22:31] <kkathman> kastorff: I agree with that
[21:22:34] <@benJIman> I disagree, lots of talk and committees will achieve nothing, actually doing something and then encouraging people to get involved is more likely to work
[21:22:35] <bgerber> how do we shape this effort and make it effective?
[21:22:36] <kastorff> every idea has it's time folks...maybe this idea's time has come
[21:22:36] <@apokryphos> How about this: we begin with the presupposition that a new forum will be made. The meeting could be to discuss how it should work?
[21:22:41] <kkathman> it will do the opposite of what we are trying to do
[21:23:01] <@apokryphos> benJIman: you might be right
[21:23:02] <@benJIman> I agree with apokryphos
[21:23:05] <adrianS> kastorff: that might be true ...
[21:23:11] cb400f supports apokryphos' presuppostion
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[21:23:36] <sPiN> i agree and await the in-fighting that will ensue
[21:23:38] <kastorff> but to just decide to create a new forum, without the dialog isn't involving a community, it's ignoring one
[21:23:45] <}-Tux-{> i would vote for a page where some existing forums are listed so the user can decide which he wants to use (most forum are using different software.. so no one is forced to use a specific one because he can choose...)
[21:23:47] <@benJIman> Actually decide to do something, and try and get people on board, don't have endless discussions when it is clear that there will never be complete agreement
[21:23:52] <kastorff> that was what happened before
[21:24:03] <@apokryphos> kastorff: but the forum/community guys would be there to give guidance/discussion on *how* it should happen
[21:24:11] <linux_learner> last time, i noticed a few things
[21:24:15] <kastorff> you have to get those most impacted to be the ones who decide the best solution is a new forums
[21:24:16] <@apokryphos> kastorff: I think that involves them, since it's the community that will have the ultimate power in this case
[21:24:18] <microchip_> i agree with {-Tux-{
[21:24:22] <sPiN> }-Tux-{, thats not very viable
[21:24:28] <linux_learner> 1) a good chunk of the community was agnostic about it
[21:24:36] <microchip_> a central page from where you pick the forum you want
[21:24:38] <@benJIman> kastorff: they are not impacted initially, it doesn't stop the existing communities from remaining.
[21:24:39] <sPiN> if new users are to get the most help possible, then the fragmentation needs to be addressed
[21:24:44] <@apokryphos> kastorff: exactly! So why not begin with the presupposition that there will be one, and the meeting discusses how this should be executed?
[21:24:44] <linux_learner> 2) the forum admin were offended
[21:24:48] <@benJIman> It's primarily about new users
[21:25:00] <cb400f> and centralization
[21:25:03] <linux_learner> i think its wise to ask a couple question when considering this
[21:25:07] <cb400f> avoiding double work
[21:25:15] <linux_learner> why are users agnostic about having 1 forum
[21:25:30] <cb400f> searching five different forums for an answer
[21:25:36] <@benJIman> They're not, it's a common request from users linux_learner
[21:25:39] <@apokryphos> some seemed to be last time, but I've spoken to several people since last time, and their methodology on this case has changed
[21:25:44] <linux_learner> why were forum admin offended, and is there a reasonable way to minimize the offence
[21:26:02] <kastorff> why wouldn't the best solution be to consider the fragmentation issue, and dialog with the fragments, and then let the fragments attempt to come up with a solution? i see an awful lot of "let's decide without them, and let them deal with it" attitude...where's the community in that?
[21:26:12] <microchip_> afaik, there's only one fedora forum around, i might be wrong tho, i think suse needs one forum (merge the two forums together) and increase on the central forum the mods
[21:26:22] <@benJIman> kastorff: because trying to get them to agree has failed consistently over the last 2 years
[21:26:26] <linux_learner> it may be a common request benJIman, but on the mailing list, alot were nuetral about it
[21:26:31] <}-Tux-{> sPiN: but the problem with a new forum is that many people who contributed to different forums may not like the software.. so they will stop contributing
[21:26:38] <kkathman> kastorff: exactly true...again to the point of de-unifying
[21:26:39] <sPiN> kastorff, no one is trying to do it without them... but none of them will participate with irc or ML
[21:27:01] <kastorff> benJIman, it's failed because no one ever got them involved...they just tried to impose a third party viewpoint
[21:27:05] <@apokryphos> kastorff: do you think it's a good idea to have one new, centralised, and official suse forum?
[21:27:07] <kkathman> sPiN: maybe a solution is to NOT have a new forum
[21:27:15] <@benJIman> kastorff: they refused point blank to use mailing list or IRC, yaloki had to be spokesperson
[21:27:20] <@apokryphos> kastorff: that seems to be a presumption a lot of people share.
[21:27:33] <@apokryphos> kkathman: using a current forum has many complications.
[21:27:46] <@apokryphos> and I think there'll be a *lot* more arguments over it
[21:27:48] <@benJIman> kastorff: There is no official forum for them to be involved with yet, the only official medium is mailing lists, and to a lesser extent IRC, yet they won't participate
[21:27:54] <sPiN> kkathman, and what? get everyone to agree to make one of the existing forums the official forum? that is a much less workable
[21:28:01] <kkathman> apokryphos: I agree, but trying to establish something new, and disrupt a community has issues also
[21:28:03] <@apokryphos> sPiN: right.
[21:28:18] <@apokryphos> kkathman: I think using a current one causes a bigger disruption.
[21:28:24] <kkathman> I dont disagree ... every approach has issues :)
[21:28:25] <@benJIman> I agree
[21:28:31] <sPiN> i agree with apokryphos
[21:28:39] <kkathman> but I do like kastorff 's idea
[21:28:56] <microchip_> why not make a whole new forum and list the current two forums as subforums of the new one
[21:28:57] <sPiN> kastorff, how do you propose we get them involved?
[21:29:09] <bgerber> WE can not impose our wish on them they have to come
[21:29:10] <kastorff> apokryphos, i think the solution is to create something new, something that all the existing forums get behind creating...it would involve consolidation, compromise, and a group think...
[21:29:12] <sPiN> kastorff, we cant seem to get them to come to these meetings or use the ML
[21:29:13] <@apokryphos> microchip_: eek, I think that would be a bit messy.
[21:29:19] <kkathman> the respective owners of the existing forums shouldnt feel like its being ramrodded either :)
[21:29:23] <@apokryphos> kastorff: I agree 100%
[21:29:32] <@benJIman> kastorff: I think we agree then
[21:29:49] <kastorff> sPIN, maybe the wrong people have been trying the wrong things...
[21:29:52] <@apokryphos> kastorff: notice there that you began with the presumption of a new forum. Why not start a meeting (among all forum people and community) with such a presumption?
[21:30:15] <bgerber> kastorff, how do we accomplish this?
[21:30:25] <@apokryphos> kastorff: it will be up to the forum people, a few other community people, and novell guys working/talking together to resolve how to best execute this.
[21:30:39] <microchip_> right
[21:30:39] <@benJIman> The trouble will be getting the forum people to participate
[21:30:57] <@apokryphos> benJIman: I think that if the presumption is there, then something has been accomplished already.
[21:31:01] <sPiN> well how will this effort be conducted? people will need to join the various forums so that they can make a post that the users of that forum will see right?
[21:31:05] <kastorff> apokryphos, what i presume is that a dialog should exist without presuming a new forum...i just think the end game will be a new forum...the major difference being those most impacted come to that conclusion
[21:31:08] <bgerber> so how do we get forum people involed?
[21:31:16] adrianS thinks about to fly in all forum people to FOSDEM, but this is most likely too late now ..
[21:31:20] <sPiN> so we need to come up with a message and then have people deliver that message to each forum
[21:31:34] <@benJIman> bgerber: announce that a new forum will be created, and invite any from the existing forums to help shape it
[21:31:42] <microchip_> we place a big header at the top of each forum which shows there's a new one
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[21:32:04] <cb400f> microchip_: now that would be disruptive ;-)
[21:32:08] <@benJIman> But it needs to be clear it's not about stealing their communities, but if they want to be involved then they're welcome
[21:32:10] <kastorff> benJIman, if you just annouce a new forum, you arent' involving the existing forums in the decision, and are simply making the same mistakes all over again
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[21:32:16] <AlbertoP> microchip_, a good way to break with them
[21:32:21] <sjones> How about creating a new forum for the forum people to discuss creating a new forum, since most of them seem unwilling or incapable of using any medium other than forums?
[21:32:38] <@apokryphos> kastorff: but the other danger is nothing new coming about from it
[21:32:40] <@benJIman> kastorff: they've refused to be involved in that decision, and frankly there's no reason they'd ever decide on it anyway
[21:32:48] <sPiN> sjones, haha :P
[21:32:52] <microchip_> well the forums members/visitors need to know somehow, most are visitors and not really actively involved
[21:32:53] <cb400f> kastorff: they made their position clear last time, they don't want other forums than their own.. what's to discuss?
[21:32:55] <kastorff> an awful lot of bad assumptions floating around here folks... :-)
[21:33:02] <kkathman> benJIman: what you are saying tho, is setting up confrontation already
[21:33:04] <@benJIman> kastorff: we have been down the ask the forums what they want todo route several times already
[21:33:29] <sjones> and most of them acted as if they were being asked to stomp kittens
[21:33:33] <@apokryphos> kastorff: benJIman says a meeting was scheduled last time for all the forum people to discuss the issue and no-one turned up?
[21:33:33] <kastorff> fine, then don't ask them...but don't come whining back to me when it fails all over again...
[21:33:35] <kkathman> if you establish and new forum and just tell the others ... they just will continue working on theirs I think... I dunno.
[21:33:37] <@benJIman> kkathman: no confrontation, just allowing process of creating a new forum to be open
[21:33:45] <AlbertoP> yes but you're risking to create just another forum...used by ~50 users...which is not what you want...
[21:33:46] <kastorff> i never heard about ANY meeting, ever
[21:33:47] <@apokryphos> kastorff: I completely agree with you that the current forum people are very very important :)
[21:33:52] <@apokryphos> kastorff: I would never want to detract from that.
[21:33:59] <kkathman> benJIman: then just create the new forum and dont worry about any fallout
[21:34:04] <@benJIman> kkathman: I have no doubt that many will, It's not about stopping them
[21:34:25] <cb400f> AlbertoP: there's no such risk.. with the forum being pushed by opensuse.org, opensuse-community.org and #suse
[21:34:33] <sPiN> ok guys lets try to regain some focus here... first obstacle/next action is to convince existing forums that we need to unify the forums
[21:34:39] <sPiN> so lets talk about how we can do that.
[21:34:42] <@apokryphos> kastorff: so you're definitely opposed to beginning with the new forum presumption?
[21:34:46] <sPiN> i propose we start that dialog ON each forum
[21:34:48] <kastorff> i keep hearing about how previous attempts failed...maybe folks should consider WHY they failed, and what needs to change to give them a chance at success?
[21:34:48] <kkathman> shrug... I mean, just by creating another one, there will be this hostility inherent, so we just accept that and move on IF thats the right thing to do
[21:34:51] <@benJIman> Users want an official forum, let's set one up, and allow existing forum personell to be involved if they wish, but no need to be antagnoistic against their communities
[21:34:52] <AlbertoP> cb400f, sorry but that risk is really big considering the current level of involvement of users...
[21:34:53] <@apokryphos> Are there any other thoughts from *forum* people about the meeting presumption?
[21:35:05] <@benJIman> kkathman:
[21:35:15] <kkathman> hehe :)
[21:35:18] <kkathman> same idea
[21:35:20] <@apokryphos> linux_learner, microchip_ ?
[21:35:27] <@benJIman> kastorff: Do you have any suggestions then? given that they've refused to use IRC or mailing lists
[21:35:33] <microchip_> i'm fine with a new forum
[21:35:41] <kastorff> has anyone considered that maybe FORUM people should be fronting the dialog?
[21:35:43] <microchip_> i'll take action in there
[21:35:45] <linux_learner> all i can say, i consider this carefully, or it will fragment and damage the community
[21:35:53] <linux_learner> having the opposite effect of what you want
[21:35:55] <sPiN> microchip_, you have no investment in current forums, it is not up to you
[21:36:12] <kkathman> sPiN: hey lets dont go that way now :(
[21:36:13] <sPiN> we need to convince people like kastorff that this is a good idea
[21:36:18] <microchip_> sPiN, i'm a very active forum member
[21:36:26] <sPiN> in what forum microchip_ ?
[21:36:37] <@apokryphos> kastorff: but you have to see why others are scared on this issue
[21:36:39] <microchip_> http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de
[21:36:45] <@apokryphos> kastorff: what can be done if nothing's resolved?
[21:36:46] <sPiN> i didnt realize that microchip_ my apologies.
[21:36:51] <microchip_> np :)
[21:37:02] <microchip_> it's the forum i visit the most
[21:37:10] <sPiN> microchip_, well would you be willing to raise the issue on that forum for discussion?
[21:37:20] <microchip_> sure
[21:37:23] <kastorff> benJIman, who is THEY? is isn't me...i'm on IRC every day, i've monitored the precious mailing list for months at a time, and the lists were dominated by people with their own agendas
[21:37:33] <linux_learner> i'm already doing that
[21:37:37] <sPiN> ok thats one forum, so we need to find people on the other forums and convince them to do the same
[21:37:41] <microchip_> oh ok, LL
[21:37:42] <linux_learner> sPiN,
[21:37:47] <@benJIman> kastorff: yaloki was primarily involved in the first round , ask him
[21:37:53] <cb400f> I'm registered on suseforums.net
[21:38:01] <cb400f> .. and suseforum.dk
[21:38:09] <linux_learner> microchip_, you can still raise the issue, as i am doing it in the staff section
[21:38:14] <sPiN> cb400f, great so you can raise the issue there....
[21:38:22] <microchip_> ok linux_learner
[21:38:23] <bgerber> I think we should have kastorff and yaloki do it
[21:38:30] <kastorff> it's fairly simple...vir@s and i need to talk...i'd be happy to invovle pascal, but it needs to start with the forum folks
[21:38:33] <@benJIman> kastorff: if you think there will be benefit to you bringing up the issue on the fora again then why don't you take an AI todo so and report back at next status or community meeting?
[21:38:34] <kastorff> trust me...i know
[21:38:36] <bgerber> lead the discussion/create it
[21:38:55] <@apokryphos> I think it's important to have a live/real-time meeting about it
[21:39:07] <sPiN> i think we should all collaborate on the message to be delivered, and then the people who have a reputation in the various forums like microchip_, linux_learner, kastorff, cb400f, etc... can deliver it
[21:39:17] <@apokryphos> kastorff: do you think this would be a good idea if we dismiss the new forum presumption for now?
[21:39:25] <kastorff> apokryphos, eventually, absolutely, but that common ground must be established outside the public forums
[21:39:30] <cb400f> hehe.. I don't have a rep.. I posted maybe 5-6 times over 6 months
[21:39:39] <sPiN> apokryphos, sure but the first step is to make them aware of it, and the detials of a meeting should be in the message we deliever
[21:40:07] <microchip_> this should be pinned on each forum
[21:40:21] <@apokryphos> Ok. So there should be a meeting set up (of course make sure this is convenient for all forum admins), and this should be properly announced
[21:40:26] <kastorff> why doesn't everyone just step aside for a bit, and let me talk to vir@s and pascal...and then we might be able to come up with an idea for moving forward?
[21:40:28] <linux_learner> i can pin it microchip_
[21:40:36] <linux_learner> do a good write up, and i'll pin it
[21:40:42] <sPiN> apokryphos, a meeting is not the next step i dont think
[21:40:48] <@apokryphos> hm
[21:40:54] <bgerber> I agree with kastorff idea
[21:40:54] <linux_learner> kastorff, viras aint been on lately
[21:40:56] <microchip_> linux_learner, since you're already doing the staff thing, do that also if you want of course :)
[21:40:58] <linux_learner> not feeling well
[21:41:08] <kastorff> linux_learner, i have some avenues
[21:41:11] <sPiN> we need to first get each forum to agree that we need to take steps to consolidate the forums for the good of the community/users
[21:41:12] <linux_learner> i am copying this into the staff section so he can read it
[21:41:12] <the_bdquick> i think kastorff has the right idea
[21:41:16] <microchip_> vir@s was today for his birthday thread
[21:41:21] <linux_learner> yep
[21:41:25] <linux_learner> briefly
[21:41:34] <sPiN> and that needs to be done preferably buy people that have a reputation on the forums already if at all possible
[21:41:42] <@benJIman> kastorff: Please report back the outcome of any discussions, to mailing list or another meeting
[21:41:55] <bgerber> I think we should create AI and let kastorff do it and report back at next meeting or ask for assistance on IRc
[21:41:59] <sPiN> so we need to come up with a message, then we can get people like kastorff to deliever the message to their respective forums
[21:42:04] <cb400f> kastorff: opensuse-project@opensuse.org
[21:42:13] <cb400f> and don't take too long please
[21:42:17] <@apokryphos> I think that would be really great
[21:42:19] <kastorff> benJIman, i'm happy to involve others, i just know that it needs to start from the inside...
[21:42:48] <@benJIman> ok please do
[21:43:04] <@apokryphos> Shall we set up an AI for this?
[21:43:07] <sPiN> kastorff, you are on which forum?
[21:43:18] <@apokryphos> suseforums.net
[21:43:36] <cb400f> oc2pus: you've been silent.. any word from a linux-club.de perspective?
[21:43:47] <sPiN> ok so we have suseforums.net and forums.suselinuxsupport.de
[21:44:01] <@benJIman> OK we can AI kastorff and microchip_ to follow up with respective forums
[21:44:02] <sPiN> by have, i mean people from those forums are here...
[21:44:06] <oc2pus> as I'm no longer a mod their I cann't say any things about decissions
[21:44:09] <microchip_> ok
[21:44:20] <oc2pus> so ask }-Tux-{ he is a mod their
[21:44:30] <oc2pus> their=there
[21:44:39] <kastorff> lol...doesn't everyone know that if vir@s and i talk, that covers susefourms.net and suselinuxsupport.de
[21:44:50] <the_bdquick> lol
[21:44:54] <linux_learner> lol yep
[21:45:07] <sPiN> no kastorff i didnt know that but thats just 2 forums there are MANY
[21:45:07] <@apokryphos> kastorff: are you the lead admin there?
[21:45:11] <microchip_> kastorff: can you contact him quick?
[21:45:22] <@apokryphos> sPiN: but they're the largest English ones, right?
[21:45:23] <kastorff> apokryphos, i pay for it...so that helps...
[21:45:29] <@apokryphos> ok 8)
[21:45:33] <@benJIman> OK let's move on from this now
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[21:45:40] <sPiN> apokryphos, i have no clue i dont bother with forums
[21:45:40] <linux_learner> heres yaloki
[21:45:42] <kastorff> folks, you start with a couple, then they involve another, and then so on
[21:45:46] <microchip_> yaloki :)
[21:45:46] <@apokryphos> yaloki: !
[21:46:09] <sPiN> kastorff, i think we should start with as many as possible. otherwise people will feel like they are not included
[21:46:10] <kastorff> you build momentum, and consensus, which is what has killed previous attempts
[21:46:23] <}-Tux-{> oc2pus: the problem is i don't know what to ask. what are the plans now? (creating a new forum?, asking the other forum members what they think about it?)
[21:46:37] <yaloki> uh uh sorry
[21:46:39] <sPiN> the discussion needs to start on all the forums we know of so that no one feels less important than any other
[21:46:46] <kastorff> sPiN, the issue is you must find that beginning, and all efforts so far started way too deep in the process...
[21:46:50] <linux_learner> }-Tux-{, what i did was copy this convo into the staff section
[21:47:06] <yaloki> meeting still going on ? ;)
[21:47:07] <cb400f> }-Tux-{: well, would users and admins support an official forum do you think?
[21:47:09] <@apokryphos> yaloki: you've missed discussion on o-c.o, @opensuse.org emails, and a unified forum :)
[21:47:10] <sPiN> well ive made the suggestion on the beginning many times now...
[21:47:20] <microchip_> so what are the plans? merge the two forums or create a new one
[21:47:22] <kastorff> it's not about importance, it's about dealing with building something that must be handled carefully
[21:47:23] <@benJIman> OK can we move on from forums now, the forum people have agreed to take it up themselves
[21:47:29] <sPiN> we define a message, then find people like yourself to deliver that message and open the discussion in each forum
[21:47:32] <SKOM> where can I find network usage
[21:47:33] <yaloki> kastorff: hi keith
[21:47:39] <@benJIman> apokryphos: was there anything else you wanted to raise under unification?
[21:47:46] <kastorff> hey pascal
[21:47:46] <@apokryphos> microchip_: for kastorff and virs to discuss, and then to reach a solution, which will hopefully be one forum.
[21:48:00] <@apokryphos> and for yaloki to be involved with this ;-)
[21:48:00] <microchip_> ok, aporkyphos
[21:48:04] <kastorff> yaloki, they're trying the same mistakes
[21:48:07] <kastorff> lol
[21:48:11] <microchip_> lol
[21:48:11] <yaloki> eh
[21:48:16] <@apokryphos> benJIman: not me, nope.
[21:48:17] <SKOM> hey?
[21:48:22] <cb400f> Maybe we can decide that if the forum people don't bring something to opensuse-project@ before next meeting (maybe a month or so), we'll need to take action
[21:48:25] <sPiN> is what i suggest what was done before? i highly doubt it.
[21:48:30] <SKOM> oh sry.. wrong channel :)
[21:48:32] <yaloki> kastorff: mistake == trying to bring sls and sf together ? ;)
[21:48:51] <}-Tux-{> cb400f: well ok - if you like i can create an post about it in the admin section.. will there be a transcript of this meeting?
[21:48:53] <kastorff> yaloki, no of deciding on the solution before building common ground
[21:48:54] <@apokryphos> cb400f: any presumptions for now might be bad. But it should be re-reviewed at the next community meeting.
[21:48:58] <@benJIman> OK people we really need to move on or we won't get through everything
[21:49:04] <}-Tux-{> so i can give a link for reference
[21:49:15] <@apokryphos> Did anyone else want to raise an item for ideas on unification?
[21:49:15] <linux_learner> i agree with kastorff there
[21:49:18] apokryphos [n=francis@unaffiliated/apokryphos] has set mode +o yaloki
[21:49:20] <@yaloki> me too
[21:49:24] <linux_learner> a common ground must be built first
[21:49:33] <@yaloki> I have the feeling the discussion never really happened
[21:49:34] <cb400f> .. if possible
[21:49:35] <linux_learner> otherwise the endevor will fail again
[21:49:40] <cb400f> if not, then..
[21:49:43] <@benJIman> instlux: Are you around to give us an update on your project?
[21:49:48] <instlux> yes
[21:49:57] <@yaloki> but maybe it won't work out, it hasn't exactly been successful up to now
[21:50:06] <@yaloki> ok, next topic it seems ^^
[21:50:08] <@benJIman> OK go for it
[21:50:33] <instlux> instlux supports now opensuse10.2 (cdrom mode)
[21:51:00] <instlux> and linkat (suse linux enterprise desktop base distribution for educational purposes in Catalunya (Spain))
[21:51:09] <@apokryphos> tell us what it is quickly first, if you can
[21:51:19] }-Tux-{ [n=marcus@p83.129.18.82.tisdip.tiscali.de] has quit IRC: "sleep"
[21:51:26] <instlux> work on supporing the internet mode installation will begin next week
[21:51:38] <kastorff> folks, i've got to go...i will be talking to yaloki and with vir@s some, to see what we can come up with...
[21:51:51] <@yaloki> kastorff: great :)
[21:52:01] <instlux> instlux: install linux from windows . That is an exe file that installs a grub for dos that lets you start installting without modifying the BIOS
[21:52:36] <instlux> other similar projects have started recently (December-January) for Debian and Ubuntu
[21:52:40] <@benJIman> instlux: Any progress on modifying an install media to include instalux as well as standard install?
[21:53:12] <instlux> I've asked for permission at the opensuse-project mail lists and get no answer
[21:53:41] <bgerber> sometime it is a bit slow in coming.
[21:53:46] <instlux> I was not sure if the rembrant thing was enough to take all the registered trademarks
[21:53:51] <@benJIman> instlux: You don't need permission to work on it, if it becomes a question of distribution that's different
[21:54:06] <@apokryphos> David Bolt isn't here by any chance, is he?
[21:54:14] <adrianS> instlux: sorry, you have asked for what permission exactly ?
[21:54:39] <instlux> The thing is where and how to publish the media so you can see the results?
[21:54:42] <davjam> apokryphos: think so :)
[21:54:58] <@apokryphos> you? ;-)
[21:55:13] Hanni [n=Olaf@p548CD0C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #opensuse-project
[21:55:19] <instlux> to rebuild the OpenSUSEDVD including instlux and publishing it on my webpage
[21:55:45] <adrianS> instlux: ah, found it ....
[21:55:46] <davjam> apokryphos: yep. managed to make it, just about.
[21:55:52] <@apokryphos> davjam: <instlux> I was not sure if the rembrant thing was enough to take all the registered trademarks
[21:55:57] <instlux> I have worked on building derivated distros based on OpenSUSE so technically is no problem
[21:56:00] <bgerber> what about a novell sponsered page?
[21:56:01] <@apokryphos> (though perhaps we should wait and you can tell us in more detail after about it)
[21:56:40] <davjam> rembrand takes out (almost) all the trademark images.
[21:56:54] <adrianS> instlux: hm, what about to make instlux an official tool below the download opensuse.org pages ?
[21:56:55] <instlux> I was worried about the "almost"
[21:57:03] <davjam> There's possibly some that I've missed, and there are a few that are built into the binaries
[21:57:21] <davjam> There's a lot that are "optional"
[21:57:29] <instlux> adianS: being "official" will be great! how to achieve that?
[21:57:40] <davjam> those are mostly screenshots, but also some that show a clear TM image
[21:58:14] <adrianS> instlux: I do see the need that it needs a review from security team, but I can try to a kick off that tomorrow ...
[21:58:21] <davjam> the TM images that are optional are things like the icons used in other non-novell packages
[21:58:40] <@yaloki> instlux: btw, adrianS is http://fosdem.org/2007/schedule/speakers/adrian+schroeter
[21:58:40] <@yaloki> ^^
[21:59:02] <instlux> adrianS: that will be great! I will be looking forward your news
[21:59:22] <adrianS> instlux: I promise to come back to you this week, I need to discuss it with a number of people, but I think it would be great for opensuse.org to have that :)
[21:59:33] <adrianS> okay, next week ;)
[21:59:38] <@benJIman> Ok, that's great, was there anything else you wanted to say about the project instlux ?
[21:59:45] <@yaloki> adrianS: instlux will be @FOSDEM, doing a lightning talk about instlux
[21:59:47] <instlux> adrianS: thank you very much :)!
[21:59:55] <adrianS> okay, great !
[22:00:03] <@yaloki> http://fosdem.org/2007/schedule/events/55
[22:00:11] <instlux> that was all
[22:00:31] <@benJIman> Moving on then, there's a YaST meeting scheduled for Wednesday which is great.
[22:00:33] <cb400f> instlux: maybe consider adding your project: http://opensuse-community.org/Projects
[22:01:01] <instlux> cb400f: ok
[22:01:13] <@apokryphos> Details on the YaST IRC meeting: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2007-02/msg00003.html
[22:01:38] <@benJIman> Bugzilla and feature tracking fits here, and yaloki has arrived.
[22:02:13] <@benJIman> There are questions raised about whether we need a community bugzilla, how we can do feature tracking to avoid duplication of work, and bug tracking for packman and guru.
[22:02:45] <@benJIman> yaloki: Do you have something to say on this?
[22:03:08] yaloki notices no one from packman has showed up
[22:03:11] <@yaloki> that's a pity
[22:03:12] <@yaloki> well
[22:03:18] oc2pus is here
[22:03:23] <@yaloki> ah, good :)
[22:03:29] <kkathman> this would be separate from novell bugzilla??? trying to understand the topic..thx
[22:03:32] <@yaloki> I tried to trigger that topic amongst the packman staff a few months ago, but it was hardly a success
[22:03:42] <@apokryphos> worth pinging in #packman again? (I did earlier)
[22:03:43] <@yaloki> personally, I'm all for it but..
[22:03:52] s|g [n=gsuveg@248-244.dyn-fa.pool.ew.hu] has quit IRC: Remote closed the connection
[22:03:59] <@yaloki> I think some folks @packman will be interested, basically those who are already almost always on IRC
[22:04:03] <@yaloki> (#packman on freenode)
[22:04:07] <@yaloki> but some won't
[22:04:21] <@benJIman> The packman bugzilla would be hosted by packman?
[22:04:24] <@yaloki> now the question is: may the novell bugzilla be (ab)used for that purpose
[22:04:36] <@yaloki> would probably make things easier
[22:04:37] <@yaloki> but..
[22:04:42] <@yaloki> legal question arises again
[22:04:48] <@benJIman> The Novell bugzilla is already not very suited to opensuse things like the build service
[22:04:57] <@yaloki> is it
[22:05:05] <@yaloki> well then I guess it's no option for community repos either
[22:05:26] <@yaloki> I suppose it could be hosted by Marc Schiffbauer, who already kindly hosts the packman infrastructure
[22:05:27] <@benJIman> Which component to assign things to is tricky, there is an awful lot of other novell products included in there, and things like searching for people to assign bugs to only works for novell employees
[22:05:31] <@benJIman> etc
[22:05:41] <@yaloki> the question is whether we wouldn't need an even better solution
[22:05:42] <cb400f> there's also discussions about the "secret" bugreports..
[22:05:53] <@yaloki> something that would work for all opensuse community "parts"
[22:06:03] <adrianS> hm, I can start a dialog to add a "packman" component to the novell bugzilla, but I can not promise anything right now ..
[22:06:08] <@benJIman> Really either we need a separate bugzilla for openSUSE, or Novell's bugzilla to be revamped to be appropriate
[22:06:18] <@yaloki> benJIman: exactly
[22:06:21] <cb400f> adrianS: any chance of bugzilla.opensuse.org?
[22:06:27] <@yaloki> I don't think a Packman bugzilla hosted at Packman is the right solution
[22:06:29] <@apokryphos> I think it's important that this bugzilla isn't just for packman
[22:06:34] <@yaloki> apokryphos: +1
[22:06:36] <@benJIman> adrianS: and what about other things, like components for individual build service projects, and user search for non-novell employees
[22:06:37] <@apokryphos> There's guru, the community website, etc
[22:06:48] <adrianS> cb400f: this is the novell bugzilla currently, I do not see much sense in founding another one
[22:06:49] <@yaloki> and there are a few other community repos too
[22:06:54] <kkathman> apokryphos: absolutely
[22:06:59] <@benJIman> adrianS: depends if the limitations can be overcome
[22:07:08] <adrianS> benJIman: right, but I do not think there needs multiple bugzillas for that
[22:07:11] <@apokryphos> adrianS: legal issue comes up again.
[22:07:18] <@benJIman> adrianS: Well only Novell people can tell us that
[22:07:31] <cb400f> adrianS: avoid "secret" novell-only bugreports.. it wouldn't be filled with non-opensuse products etc.
[22:07:32] <adrianS> right, but these would be the same below bugzilla.opensuse.org as well
[22:07:47] <@benJIman> adrianS: do you think it's realistic to allow non-novell employees to create components to file bugs against, and to have access to things like the user search?
[22:08:02] <@apokryphos> adrianS: whoops, I was thinking of the wrong bugzilla. Disregard my comment :)
[22:08:09] <@yaloki> guys
[22:08:14] <@yaloki> he can't read it all at once ^^
[22:08:39] <adrianS> benJIman: I dunno, as I said, I can't promise anything right now, but I can try to figure out this ...
[22:08:48] <@yaloki> ok
[22:08:50] <@benJIman> can we AI you to investigate that?
[22:08:54] <@yaloki> I think it's the 1st thing to check
[22:09:07] <adrianS> secret bugs should be only there, if 1) security issue non-public or SLES related
[22:09:13] <@yaloki> we'll see what to do depending on it
[22:09:19] <@apokryphos> whatever happens with a b.opensuse.org or b.novell.com there will still *need* to be a community bugzilla in my opinion
[22:09:27] <adrianS> so I do not think it is a problem with OBS projects or packman
[22:09:35] <@benJIman> Depends on the legal issues which we havn't got an answer on yet apokryphos
[22:09:39] <@apokryphos> hm
[22:09:55] <@benJIman> Ok, what about feature tracking, were there plans for a public FATE?
[22:10:15] <adrianS> there were discussion, but no decission yet
[22:10:27] <@apokryphos> benJIman: there's not going to be any chance of having a bug tracker for things like codecs hosted by Novell, is there?
[22:10:40] <@benJIman> Alternatively bugzilla could be abused for that if there were a more open one for community use.
[22:10:51] <@benJIman> apokryphos: adrians said he wasn't sure
[22:10:58] <adrianS> the question is what kind of requests should be in fate.o.o ? shall everbody do requests there ?
[22:11:31] <@benJIman> adrianS: I think so, there needs to be some way for people to know what others are working on, so we don't have everyone doing the same thing differently
[22:12:09] <adrianS> the point is, we do use fate at novell to see what needs still to be decided
[22:12:42] <adrianS> so it is used very much for product managers or project managers to deal with all requests and coordinate work to people
[22:12:47] <@yaloki> I guess we'll always run into the same problems if we share the same tool across novell and community
[22:12:53] <adrianS> I do not think that this fits to a community project
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[22:13:13] <@benJIman> adrianS: Doesn't necessarily need to be fate, but at present we have no idea whatsoever what Novell people are working on
[22:13:17] <@yaloki> some things will have to remain secret/private for novell/suse
[22:13:22] <adrianS> do not get me wrong, fate might be very valuable for opensuse.org, but the use case and work style would be very different ...
[22:13:28] <@benJIman> adrianS: we could all go and do exactly the same things, which would waste everyone's time
[22:13:40] <adrianS> hm
[22:14:36] <@yaloki> I'm not sure the tools are appropriate to split visibility
[22:14:45] <@yaloki> having work items visible only for novell
[22:14:52] <adrianS> is it really the only issue that get knowledge what novell people are working on ?
[22:15:09] <@benJIman> adrianS: and vice versa, and allowing people to see who is working on what ideally
[22:15:11] <adrianS> that might be doable via an html export of opensuse features of the current fate ..
[22:15:16] <@benJIman> to aid collaboration
[22:15:25] <cb400f> I also think we need a replacement for the wiki feature request page
[22:15:32] <cb400f> dunno anything about FATE though
[22:15:37] <bgerber> Is there a method of export non secret that could be used outside?
[22:15:51] <adrianS> that should be doable, I think
[22:16:22] <@benJIman> There are a few use cases 1) community members aware of what work Novell is doing to avoid re-doing it, 2) vice versa 3) Users adding feature requests and other people inside or outside Novell taking them up, and tracking that
[22:16:46] <@benJIman> All of which could be done in a number of ways
[22:17:17] <adrianS> so, it might make sense to have an external one for the public and keep the internal one for coordinating novell employees ?
[22:17:30] <@benJIman> yes
[22:17:45] <adrianS> because when a novell employe works on something, his managers needs to agree, this does not fit for the external world ...
[22:18:01] <@yaloki> sure
[22:18:10] <@yaloki> by no means will someone outside of novell tell a novell employee what to do
[22:18:15] <@yaloki> or the opposite, actually
[22:18:15] <adrianS> as a result, this means that future features are in both fate databases ..
[22:18:23] <adrianS> right
[22:18:32] <@benJIman> It might be useful to have a contact for certain things though, if someone wants to offer to help ,or has something to do the desired thing already etc.
[22:18:56] <adrianS> like the html export for opensuse.org features ?
[22:19:41] <@benJIman> Probably, anyway this is something you guys need to work out, you understand what is required?
[22:20:18] <adrianS> I think, I have an idea ...
[22:20:21] <@yaloki> what would already be quite useful is a common tracker of some sort to avoid duplicate packaging
[22:20:23] <adrianS> about that
[22:20:34] <@yaloki> though benJIman's webpin already helps a lot
[22:20:41] <@benJIman> ok let's move on
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[22:20:43] <@yaloki> but a bugtracker could be of great help wrt that as well
[22:20:58] <@benJIman> davjam: I understand you wanted to say something about makesusedvd + rembrand?
[22:21:00] <cb400f> maybe also for package requests
[22:21:01] <@apokryphos> yeah. The packman list is a bit of a black hole for a lot of people, I think
[22:21:25] <@apokryphos> (and it's not like there's low traffic on it; it's pretty high)
[22:22:20] <@yaloki> it's quite low traffic actually
[22:22:27] <@benJIman> Hmm davjam not here?
[22:22:27] <@yaloki> but well
[22:22:33] <@yaloki> responsiveness isn't all that good
[22:22:45] <davjam> Sorry, trying to do things at wonce again :|
[22:22:49] <davjam> -w
[22:22:52] <@yaloki> some packagers don't have a lot of time.. depends.. periods of high activity, periods of none ;)
[22:23:06] <@apokryphos> bug tracker helps keep track, then ;-)
[22:23:09] <@benJIman> davjam: are you ok to go ahead now?
[22:23:24] <davjam> not sure what to say about to say about it.
[22:23:34] <@apokryphos> raise awareness :)
[22:24:01] <davjam> I've been working on debranding openSUSE using rembrand
[22:24:26] <davjam> so far, I think it's removed most of the trademarked images
[22:24:53] <davjam> and then been building an installation DVD using makeSUSEdvd
[22:26:05] <davjam> the results, so far have been okay. There's still stuff that needs removing, but that requires going into the source packages and stripping out images included in the binaries
[22:26:26] <davjam> eg. kickoff, xdmbgrd
[22:27:14] <@benJIman> Ok great.
[22:27:23] <davjam> I've written a full description of what I've don so far, and dumped it here:
[22:27:26] <davjam> http://www.davjam.org/mediawiki/index.php/openSUSE:Debrand:howto
[22:27:57] <davjam> http://www.davjam.org/mediawiki/index.php/openSUSE:Debranding
[22:28:02] <@benJIman> Splendid, perhaps you could migrate that to opensuse.org ?
[22:28:04] <davjam> shows the progress so far
[22:28:20] <@apokryphos> on opensuse.org there's currently: http://en.opensuse.org/Making_a_SUSE_based_distribution
[22:28:38] <davjam> No problem. Was just making sure I hadn't missed anything before moving it
[22:28:44] <@benJIman> Great
[22:28:57] <@apokryphos> the howto looks really nicely documented
[22:29:03] <@apokryphos> looks good 8)
[22:29:05] <@benJIman> Ok, it's getting quite late, let's go through the AIs from last time to finish off.
[22:29:18] <davjam> A few people knew about it and I was hoping to get some feedback from the authors of rembrand before making any final commits
[22:29:44] <@benJIman> yaloki: you were going to bring up bugzilla up the packaging list for discussion, I'm assuming that's still ongoing from our discussions today?
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[22:29:56] <@yaloki> err, yeah
[22:30:01] <@yaloki> sorry, too busy to take care of it
[22:30:06] <@yaloki> will be doable after 24+25 feb ;)
[22:30:16] <@benJIman> Education project was announced to list and discussed so that one is done
[22:30:25] <@yaloki> um, there was a FOSDEM topic on this meeting's plan too
[22:30:39] <@benJIman> Ah mine, I havn't really had time to re-write the webpin code properly
[22:30:46] <@yaloki> http://www.fosdem.org/2007/schedule/devroom/opensuse
[22:30:54] <@yaloki> the opensuse developer room schedule is finished and online
[22:30:58] <@benJIman> but if anyone wants the terrible source it's at http://benjiweber.co.uk/src/
[22:31:15] <@apokryphos> Some of the AIs from the last meeting are listed here, on the agenda, by the way: http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Community_Meeting_2007-02-11
[22:31:37] <@benJIman> opensuse-community.org announcement and contacting of wiki owners has commenced.
[22:31:43] <@benJIman> apokryphos: I understand there's been mixed responses?
[22:31:54] <@apokryphos> I've been in discussions with the susewiki.org current admin
[22:32:23] <sPiN> i got 0 response from the 2 or 3 that i contacted
[22:32:32] <sPiN> several of the wikis had 0 contact info
[22:32:50] <@apokryphos> at the moment he said he's happy to wait and see how things go with the site, and even contribute to it, but he seemed quite unhappy about simply "giving up susewiki.org" and integrated articles into o.o and o-c.o
[22:33:09] <@apokryphos> The main reason for this, he said, was that opensuse.org was a mess, which ties into the first issue.
[22:33:14] <@benJIman> I don't think we need that anyway
[22:33:33] <@yaloki> maybe
[22:33:34] <sPiN> the ones i contacted i made sure to say that we were not asking them to stop what they were doing
[22:33:36] <@apokryphos> susewiki.acapanela.com has been brought down, by the way, and now forwards to opensuse-community.org
[22:33:50] <@apokryphos> sPiN: right, very important.
[22:33:50] <sPiN> but i asked them to either contribute or give us permission to contribute their articles for them
[22:33:51] <@yaloki> but if we try to bring the community together, we must contact everyone involved to at least give a chance of doing it
[22:34:07] <@apokryphos> Thing is, the key here is still centralisation.
[22:34:13] <@benJIman> yaloki: yes, but we don't need to ask them to discontinue their projects, if people are encouraged to contribute to one it can become the standard though
[22:34:21] microchip_ likes centrialisation
[22:34:23] <@yaloki> ah, sorry, that's what you meant
[22:34:33] <@yaloki> benJIman: right
[22:34:44] <@benJIman> ok last item on agenda, FOSDEM talk, apokryphos ?
[22:34:49] <@apokryphos> But this ties into the issue of an opensuse.org cleanup, which is the primary offput for others
[22:35:10] <@apokryphos> FOSDEM is on this year, and as yaloki can tell us, it is going to rock ;-)
[22:35:17] <@yaloki> indeed ^^
[22:35:20] <@benJIman> indeed :)
[22:35:21] <@apokryphos> yaloki: rundown of info?
[22:35:25] <@yaloki> ah
[22:35:29] <@yaloki> well, regarding openSUSE first
[22:35:38] <@yaloki> there will be a so-called "developer room" for openSUSE
[22:35:47] <@yaloki> the schedule has been put together by Martin Lasarsch
[22:35:54] <@yaloki> http://fosdem.org/2007/schedule/devroom/opensuse
[22:35:57] <@yaloki> yummy yummy
[22:36:11] <@yaloki> lots of SUSE developers from Nürnberg will be there so, it's also a great chance to meet people IRL
[22:36:26] <@apokryphos> FOSDEM is open to *everyone* :)
[22:36:30] <@yaloki> apokryphos will be doing a talk about openSUSE community: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/schedule/events/opensuse_community
[22:36:32] <@yaloki> and yes
[22:36:41] <@yaloki> FOSDEM is one of the largest and most appreciated FOSS events in Europe
[22:36:49] <@yaloki> it's open to everyone, entrace is free for everything
[22:37:11] <@yaloki> everyone can just pop in to any developer room, lightning talk,main track talk, etc...
[22:37:19] <@yaloki> http://www.fosdem.org/2007/schedule/events
[22:37:29] <@yaloki> for the main tracks, we'll have quite a few big names, as usual
[22:37:34] <@yaloki> and lots of other activities
[22:37:43] <@yaloki> all in all, it sums up to more or less 200 talks over the weekend
[22:37:47] <@yaloki> so.. see you in Brussels ;)
[22:38:13] <@apokryphos> you will also get a free openSUSE t-shirt if you attend, apparently
[22:38:17] <@benJIman> 24-25th Feb btw
[22:38:22] <@yaloki> right
[22:38:31] <@yaloki> 24+25th february in Brussels, Belgium
[22:38:38] <@yaloki> http://www.fosdem.org/2007/practical/transportation
[22:39:01] <@yaloki> very relaxed atmosphere, lots of very interesting people
[22:39:12] <@yaloki> it's really the event for the community, by the community
[22:39:13] <adrianS> apokryphos: do ya ? I thought we used that money to sponsor WLAN there, but Martin organized that ...
[22:39:21] <@apokryphos> and a great way to get involved with ideas on openSUSE, since all the devs are there and waiting for the discussion :)
[22:39:25] <@benJIman> Right then, that I think just about covers the agenda. When shall we plan the next meeting for?
[22:39:45] <@apokryphos> adrianS: that was the original selling point for me going there, so I hope so! :P
[22:39:49] <@benJIman> I think probably early-mid march, as we have fosdem in between
[22:40:00] <@benJIman> apokryphos: I aquired one already
[22:40:09] <@apokryphos> benJIman: where from?
[22:40:12] <@apokryphos> Mid-march sounds good
[22:40:13] <adrianS> apokryphos: I can maybe bring one for you esp. ;)
[22:40:17] <@benJIman> apokryphos: linuxworld london
[22:40:22] <@yaloki> I have 3 from last year ^^
[22:40:35] <@benJIman> Thoughts on next meeting?
[22:40:42] <cb400f> mid march
[22:40:43] <@apokryphos> adrianS: awesome :D
[22:41:06] <cb400f> is sunday better than saturday?
[22:41:09] <@apokryphos> I quite like Sunday for a meeting. How is this for others?
[22:41:10] <@benJIman> I think we didn't have quite such a good turnout on a sunday, perhaps a saturday again
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[22:41:18] <@benJIman> Sundays are generally difficult for me
[22:41:21] <@benJIman> I only just made today
[22:42:02] <@yaloki> I don't care, equally good for me
[22:42:05] <@apokryphos> How is Saturday the 22nd?
[22:42:23] <cb400f> fewer participants than last time.. but hard to compare
[22:42:27] <@benJIman> What calendar are you looking at apokryphos ?
[22:42:40] <@apokryphos> the wrong one ;-)
[22:42:41] <@benJIman> Let's aim for saturday 17th, see how it goes
[22:42:49] <@yaloki> ok
[22:42:50] <@apokryphos> good for me
[22:43:00] <@yaloki> everyone else fell asleep anyway, as it seems ;)
[22:43:07] <cb400f> ok for me
[22:43:10] <@benJIman> Thanks all for turning up.
[22:43:20] <@benJIman> SUSEhelp: topic.diff
[22:43:21] <SUSEhelp> benJIman: Too many changes!
[22:43:22] <SUSEhelp> benJIman: Old topic: openSUSE project talk (not support) | OBS now GPL: http://tinyurl.com/ytep29 | http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_News | Next Meeting 11th February: http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Current | Also visit #opensuse-factory and #opensuse-buildservice
[22:43:23] <@apokryphos> Yeah, thank you everyone :)
[22:43:24] <SUSEhelp> benJIman: Current topic: Welcome to the openSUSE community meeting | http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Community_Meeting_2007-02-11
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[22:44:07] <@apokryphos> especially the forum people and adrianS, who could help out a lot with some of our questions 8)
[22:44:37] <adrianS> thank you too :)
[22:44:45] <@apokryphos> Will someone be able to do the minutes and get them posted to the -project list?
[22:45:13] <@apokryphos> Which reminds me, *everyone* please subscribe to the opensuse-project@opensuse.org list
[22:45:16] <@benJIman> I can probably do that tomorrow evening, if someone else can do before then then they're welcome
[22:45:23] <@apokryphos> it's very low-traffic, and it's the place to get discussion on the project done :)
[22:45:38] <@yaloki> yes please, let's get some life into that list