KDE/Meetings/2009 08 06-transcript

[18:06:05] * wstephenson plays the KDE fanfare [18:06:14] <wstephenson> Hear ye, hear ye! [18:06:27] * rabauke hears [18:06:27] <zizzfizzix> llunak: hi there, did your changes make it into latest update? [18:06:28] <wstephenson> The openSUSE-KDE Community Meeting is Starting [18:06:39] <wstephenson> please keep your random stuff until the end... [18:07:00] <wstephenson> Agenda [18:07:13] <wstephenson> * easing KDE4 one-click installs feature request [18:07:22] <wstephenson> * dropping remaining poorly maintained KDE3 apps from Factory [18:07:30] <wstephenson> * default sound backend [18:07:38] <wstephenson> * Default Plasma containment [18:07:50] <wstephenson> * Revision of greeter text, writing of new KDE4 introduction [18:07:57] <wstephenson> * New sftp/fish kio to be included in 11.2? [1] [18:08:03] <wstephenson> * Default dolphin to editable or breadcrumb address-bar? [18:08:09] <wstephenson> * If firefox is default in 11.2, how do users import their bookmarks from konqueror? [18:08:24] <wstephenson> * YaST2 "Community Repositories" for 11.2 (Community (kde3 and/or kde4?) Backports?) [18:08:30] <wstephenson> * Slow kde/plasma start since 4.3 [18:08:41] <wstephenson> so we have a jam packed show this evening [18:08:58] <wstephenson> But first, the topic I look forward to for 2 whole weeks: Old Action Items [18:09:07] <wstephenson> (some of mine are drawing a pension =) [18:09:34] <wstephenson> * add packaging guideline for kde4 packages (wstephenson) [18:09:40] * wstephenson coughs [18:09:41] <wstephenson> notdone [18:09:48] <wstephenson> *figure out license repo dialogs and other ways how to notify the users about our bug reports policy (wstephenson) [18:09:50] <wstephenson> notdone [18:10:01] <wstephenson> * get recommendation from rabauke about automounter (wstephenson) [18:10:03] <wstephenson> nearly done [18:10:22] <wstephenson> (i'm checking the automounter code) [18:10:27] <Beineri> when done? [18:10:34] <wstephenson> next week [18:10:38] <wstephenson> * put together a howto for cross distribution packaging of kde applications (bittin`, llunak, mrdocs) [18:10:48] <llunak> no progress here [18:11:02] <llunak> mrdocs is not here, we talked together [18:11:22] <remur_030> llunak: did ajaeger ping you about it? [18:11:28] <llunak> about what? [18:11:43] <llunak> I assume the answer is no [18:11:50] <remur_030> cross distro packaging on obs, looks like not [18:12:07] <wstephenson> why, did he say somethign? [18:12:15] <remur_030> he was looking for people to blog about obs and it's features [18:12:25] <remur_030> came up last -project meeting [18:12:36] <llunak> I guess he has now also more important things to do :-/ [18:12:52] <llunak> anyway, summary, no progress, but to be fixed :) [18:13:36] <wstephenson> * figure out what all needs to be done for translations for 11.2 (llunak) [18:13:46] <llunak> not done [18:13:58] <wstephenson> * change browser defaults to firefox for 11.2 (llunak) [18:14:20] <rabauke> worked for me [18:14:21] <llunak> done, as agree before (i.e. including keeping konqueror for 11.1 upgrades) [18:14:26] <rabauke> yet konq is still in th epanel. [18:14:50] <llunak> Beineri did that AFAIK [18:15:02] <wstephenson> * add missing multimedia key assignments to bug #524734 (everyone) [18:15:05] <wstephenson> not done here [18:15:05] <bugbot> openSUSE bug 524734 in openSUSE 11.2 (KDE4 Workspace) "multimedia keys should have default assignments" [Enhancement,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/524734 [18:15:24] * Beineri did [18:15:51] * wstephenson will do it after [18:15:55] <remur_030> erm I wanted to do that [18:15:56] <wstephenson> * process printer-applet inclusion (Beineri) [18:15:58] <llunak> nothing in that bugreport, so not done apparently [18:15:59] * Beineri did [18:16:12] <wstephenson> Beineri: i notice it crashes on dbus restart [18:16:13] <remur_030> ah not so fast guys [18:17:09] <Beineri> wstephenson: bugzilla? [18:17:22] <wstephenson> ahem [18:17:56] <Beineri> to where did the "discuss branding with upstream (wstephenson) AI disappear? [18:18:20] <wstephenson> * discuss branding with upstream [18:18:29] <llunak> handled last time [18:18:40] <Beineri> is it solved? [18:18:47] <wstephenson> it is still in progress, nuno has the specs of what we want and when [18:18:55] <wstephenson> i'm happy to give an update :) [18:18:59] <Beineri> wstephenson: please do [18:19:15] <wstephenson> he says he might need help with putting the elements into kdm [18:19:41] <wstephenson> the plan is to do wallpaper, splash, and kdm theme, then see if we can use it for the livecd bootsplash [18:20:06] <Beineri> any deadline set? [18:20:38] <wstephenson> yes initial work done by aug 15 or so for m6 [18:20:43] <wstephenson> then final by sep 10 [18:20:48] <Beineri> what is the suse deadline for docu and box artwork (if any)? [18:22:12] <wstephenson> i'm not sure, coolo gave me sep 10 as the time final artwork is needed, but it's worth double checking when docu need screens for [18:22:24] <wstephenson> i'll take that [18:22:45] <wstephenson> AI: wstephenson - talk to docu and PM about artwork reqts [18:23:01] <Beineri> ok, you skipped "* file new .ymp and do fate request (rabauke)" [18:23:22] <rabauke> half of it is done. [18:23:28] <rabauke> i.e. the request [18:23:40] <rabauke> no answers so far [18:23:46] <Beineri> rabauke: last meeting we didn't know about anymore what it was about :-) [18:24:01] <wstephenson> i was grouping by team member [18:24:08] <wstephenson> do you want to run the meeting? [18:25:04] <Beineri> then tell that? [18:25:27] <wstephenson> rabauke: what fate #? [18:25:57] <rabauke> https://features.opensuse.org/306957 [18:26:52] <rabauke> ah, there was an answer, does not make sense to me. [18:27:32] <wstephenson> sorry folks, x crashed. [18:27:40] <wstephenson> where were we [18:27:51] <rabauke> https://features.opensuse.org/306957 [18:27:52] <wstephenson> 306957 [18:28:01] <cgoncalves> (hopefully not plasma or kwin :-) [18:28:14] <wstephenson> no, click a link, lose your session. [18:28:22] <wstephenson> maybe we should default to lynx ;) [18:29:02] <Beineri> sidenote about "make Firefox default" AI, on M5 Live-CD Firefox complains at first start it wouldn't be set as default browser :-) [18:29:13] <bitshuffler> This doesn't help you until http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=503276 is finally fixed - at least not for obs vs obs repos but only for "official" vs obs repos. [18:29:13] <llunak> Beineri: worked on [18:29:17] <bugbot> openSUSE bug 503276 in openSUSE.org (BuildService) "Different vendors for different repositories" [Critical,New] [18:30:15] <bitshuffler> er, nvm. it prolly does. sry, I mixed it up :/ [18:30:18] <wstephenson> i think we're done with the old AIs [18:30:32] <remur_030> wstephenson: wait a second [18:30:38] <wstephenson> ... [18:31:03] <remur_030> I wanted to write a mail for the multimedia keys and make everybody create seperate bugreport that block the multimediakey bug [18:31:36] <remur_030> because there are different problems with the mutlimediakeys, some are just not assigned to programs, others don't have proper symbols [18:31:49] <wstephenson> remur_030: ok, go ahead and do it :) [18:32:12] <remur_030> So I'll ask for xev output of the keys and what they are supposed to do and try assigning them to the proper teams, is there anything I forgot here? [18:32:30] <llunak> that should be all [18:32:52] <remur_030> allright, doing it after the meeting then [18:33:35] <wstephenson> ok [18:33:46] <wstephenson> * easing KDE4 one-click installs feature request is done [18:34:06] <wstephenson> btw rabauke I asked #yast about streamlining vendor change conflicts [18:34:07] <rabauke> maybe somebody else than me should add something to that request [18:34:22] <wstephenson> seems they definitely want a warning there [18:34:50] <rabauke> wstephenson: I only used them when I tried YaST, with zypper it's a lot less scary... [18:34:53] <cb400f> there should be a warning yes.. but a default solution should be preselected.. (apropos).... like zypper does [18:34:59] <rabauke> s/used/noticed [18:35:06] <wstephenson> rabauke: yeah [18:35:14] <cb400f> rabauke: where's the request? [18:35:21] <rabauke> exactly, zypper and Yast should behave the same. [18:35:22] <wstephenson> the 306957 [18:35:34] <wstephenson> and the conflicts thing could be improved, made less scary [18:35:47] <rabauke> cb400f: not sure if there is one for the vendor change [18:36:01] <rabauke> the above is about priorities, which is another culprit when using one-clciks. [18:36:33] <cb400f> myeah.. but if the update repo didn't have that annoying priority in 11.1 it would hardly ever be a problem [18:36:42] <llunak> rabauke: I think Jan Engelhardt is not a developer, the name rings a bell from bugreports [18:36:48] <cb400f> and letting ymps set it might just lead to a "race to the bottom" [18:37:05] <rabauke> cb400f: it is, I had all set to 99 and still got issues. :) [18:37:06] <cb400f> everyone setting their repos to 1 (or 0?) [18:37:13] <cb400f> hrm [18:37:41] <rabauke> cb400f: no, they would check all others and do -1. the user has to acknowledge that proposal. [18:38:00] <cb400f> is there a request already about less scary conflict dialogs? [18:38:18] <rabauke> in fact, checking oss and update would already be neough for most. [18:38:57] <cb400f> maybe oss and update should just come with 100 out of the box? [18:40:49] <wstephenson> cb400f: no request yet. [18:40:54] <wstephenson> who wants to do that? [18:41:06] <cb400f> I've been wanting to do it for a while [18:41:22] <wstephenson> AI: cb400f propose less scary conflict resolution [18:41:30] <cb400f> .. just wanted to check if something was changed on 11.2 first.. since it's too late now for 11.2 anyway [18:41:37] <wstephenson> cb400f: i doubt it [18:41:58] <wstephenson> *dropping remaining poorly maintained KDE3 apps from Factory (KDE/Community/kde3_eval and KDE:KDE3) [18:42:09] <wstephenson> do we have any of those left? [18:42:30] <llunak> 20+, depending on how you count [18:42:34] <wstephenson> yeah... [18:42:50] <llunak> I'm halfway through making a list with suggestions, I'll send it to the list [18:42:55] <llunak> some of them are rather clear I think [18:42:59] <Beineri> the list is not totally up-to-date [18:43:08] <llunak> I have my own here [18:43:29] <llunak> it'll probably take too much time here, let's discuss on the list after I send it [18:44:07] <remur_030> is there any news about contrib? will it stick around? [18:47:03] <llunak> remur_030: where is contrib under KDE: ? [18:47:27] <Beineri> Factory:Contrib [18:47:30] <cb400f> !wiki Contrib [18:47:30] <remur_030> llunak: hrm? No I am talking about the opensuse:contrib repository [18:47:31] <SUSEhelp> cb400f: http://opensuse.org/Contrib [18:47:33] <cb400f> ;-) [18:47:38] <karli> hi all [18:47:58] <wstephenson> hey it's the firestarter [18:48:20] <karli> yes. I´m guilty [18:48:32] <wstephenson> next topic * default sound backend (bug #440786) [18:48:36] <bugbot> openSUSE bug 440786 in openSUSE 11.2 (KDE4 Workspace) "install phonon-backend-xine by default" [Normal,Reopened] https://bugzilla.novell.com/440786 [18:49:13] <rabauke> same issue as with 11.1. as long as there is not xine phonon backend, I do not get any sound notifications. [18:49:32] <bitshuffler> Can that be delayed until packman builds for factory? E.g. I have no idea if I have problems or not since amarok refuses to play flacs and the rest is a pita withut packman anyways. [18:49:57] <remur_030> bitshuffler: when will they start? M6? [18:50:19] <cb400f> might not be until RCs [18:50:20] <wstephenson> could we set it by default on the kde livecds? [18:50:22] <cb400f> who knows [18:50:33] <Beineri> when they have setup/solved build server problems afaik, ask yaloki :-) [18:50:34] <bitshuffler> remur_030: not sure. iirc yaloki has set it up and said something like they thought about starting it after feature freeze (dunno when that is either) [18:51:35] <cgoncalves> bitshuffler: indeed. that's a +1 for not using factory daily [18:51:42] <rabauke> does anyone get sound notifications with the default kde install on 11.2? [18:52:05] <remur_030> why did -gstreamer get selected as default anyways? wouldn't xine have been the natural choice? [18:52:18] <rabauke> because of the fluendo thingy. [18:52:24] <wstephenson> and pulseaudio [18:52:47] <bitshuffler> remur_030: cause default suse xine is as useful as a car without an engine? ;D [18:52:56] <tittiatcoke> I am using Factory, but with the xine from Pacman for 11.1 :-) and phonon-backend-xine. Still amazed that it worked [18:53:00] <rabauke> I can re-install factory until the next meeting, maybe it is fixed by then... [18:53:09] <remur_030> well fluendo had to be removed anyway? [18:53:20] * cgoncalves has been happy with pulseaudio though - even when running amarok and flash at the same time [18:53:20] <rabauke> bitshuffler: at least you can hear oggs :p [18:53:53] <bitshuffler> heh, that might be an idea - /me makes note to create some oggs from mp3s & flac stuff [18:54:06] * cb400f has not noticed probs with xine+pulse either [18:54:07] <wstephenson> i should do a clean reinstall too. i can't tell what is current with my factory box [18:54:09] <tittiatcoke> we still have the issue on Factory with pulseaudio and kmix started on mute [18:54:32] <rabauke> tittiatcoke: ah, that's where that is comming from! [18:54:34] <remur_030> tittiatcoke: this happens to me on 11.1 as well [18:54:44] <rabauke> bug number?ß [18:54:55] <bitshuffler> can it be that current factory isn't using PA anyways? At least it isn't here and I don't have the mute problem either. [18:55:10] <tittiatcoke> Have to look for that one :-) [18:55:15] * wstephenson is looking [18:55:38] <llunak> I have only M4 and there pulse is still running [18:55:41] <bitshuffler> http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=499445 [18:55:44] <rabauke> tittiatcoke: no worries, I can search myself, just thought you had it in mind. [18:55:46] <bugbot> openSUSE bug 499445 in openSUSE 11.2 (Sound) "HDA ATI SB muted automatically at start" [Normal,Needinfo] [18:55:59] <rabauke> ah, cool. thanks. [18:56:09] <wstephenson> needinfo [18:56:14] <wstephenson> can anyone provide that/ [18:57:09] <tittiatcoke> or for 11.1: bug #520426 [18:57:12] <bugbot> openSUSE bug 520426 in openSUSE 11.1 (Sound) "Sound muted at startup after installing latest test updates" [Normal,Needinfo] https://bugzilla.novell.com/520426 [18:57:29] <tittiatcoke> also here needinfo. [18:57:42] <rabauke> I have hda intel [18:58:16] <wstephenson> ok, if you suffer it, please keep the BR moving [18:58:18] <rabauke> kevin's issue could be the xine one :p [18:58:30] <wstephenson> * Default Plasma containment [18:58:33] <tittiatcoke> strangest is that if I disable pulseaudio, everything works fine :-) [18:58:36] <wstephenson> Next topic [18:58:48] <wstephenson> who owns that one? [18:59:13] <wstephenson> i would vote for the default one, the 4.3 cashew is much more obvious [18:59:23] <llunak> somebody asked this on the ML some time back [18:59:28] <llunak> Beineri: is that yours? [18:59:36] <cb400f> I'm a little bit in favour of simple mode.. zoom out still to rough edges [18:59:38] <remur_030> cb400f: you had an opinion about this [18:59:53] <cb400f> but it's a close call [18:59:59] <Beineri> llunak: yes [19:00:11] <cb400f> because switching to default mode and back creates a mess too ;-) [19:00:17] * Beineri tends to also keep upstream default this time [19:00:27] <llunak> fine with me [19:00:40] <wstephenson> who wants the AI? [19:00:49] <Beineri> wstephenson: "more obvious"? it's smaller... [19:01:16] * Beineri would say less intrusive [19:01:16] <wstephenson> err, that meant "less intrusive" in an obscure northern british dialect... [19:01:20] <wstephenson> *snap* [19:01:51] * rabauke is for upstream too. [19:01:55] <wstephenson> AI: Beineri - default containment to default [19:01:59] * Beineri knows how to change it if that is the question ;-) [19:02:10] <wstephenson> * Revisision of greeter text, writing of new KDE4 introduction [19:02:23] <wstephenson> somebody had been typing too long when they addededed that [19:02:34] <Beineri> yeah, then someone can explain what the cashew is for :-) [19:02:39] <rabauke> will the plain one still exist, i.e. what happens if people update? [19:02:53] <Beineri> and what other stuff changed/is important, analog to http://help.opensuse.org/kde4/ [19:02:57] <wstephenson> rabauke: yes it should be kept [19:03:01] <rabauke> ok [19:03:03] <wstephenson> i'll take that [19:03:14] <wstephenson> AI: wstephenson greeter and associated text [19:03:25] <wstephenson> oh the oxy guys will help theme it [19:03:52] <Beineri> the question is, can we integrate the kde4 geneal text somehow in the normal greeter (we're before text freeze, correct?) [19:04:04] <Beineri> and, do we want to keep the greeter at all? :-) [19:04:28] <llunak> we need it for e.g. the firefox change [19:04:28] <Beineri> or dump the openSUSE general text? [19:04:31] <wstephenson> which text? [19:04:36] <wstephenson> oh i see [19:04:38] <Beineri> 'default browser' is a good point [19:04:40] <rabauke> in 11.1 I found a pdf somewhere and wondered why it was not on the desktop by default. [19:04:44] <llunak> unless we present a dialog at the first kde startup requiring the user to choose their browser of course [19:04:46] * cb400f thinks text freeze is today ;-) [19:04:55] <Beineri> wstephenson: not the one from the devel releases, that will go away again :-) [19:04:59] <wstephenson> i would be in favour of collecting some documents about the default install and putting them in Documents [19:05:25] <wstephenson> i believe certain other popular distros do such a thing [19:05:26] <Beineri> mhm, greeter is missing from 11.1 screenshots [19:05:39] <wstephenson> 'introduction to KDE', introduction to opensuse, etc [19:05:55] <wstephenson> we should be able to community-i18n them even after today's freeze. [19:06:01] <Beineri> not sure if the 3.5 was updated for 11.1: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:OS11.1-kde35-1.png [19:07:42] <Beineri> kde4 11.1 greeter: http://i25.tinypic.com/14bizpj.png [19:07:50] <llunak> wstephenson: that might be better, since people don't know how to run the greeter again anyway [19:08:09] <llunak> we still could use the greeter to at least point this out and say the really important parts, like the firefox thing [19:08:29] <wstephenson> right [19:09:01] <wstephenson> basic greeter and doc collection? [19:09:08] <llunak> makes sense to me [19:09:19] <wstephenson> ok, AI: wstephenson start doc collection project [19:09:28] <wstephenson> * New sftp/fish kio to be included in 11.2? [19:09:31] <wstephenson> discuss. [19:10:00] * wstephenson thinks coolo could review the new ioslave as the Emeritus King of Kio [19:10:06] <rabauke> there were users complaining about fish not working in KDE4 and the above is a opensuse hack week project. [19:10:13] <remur_030> isn't fish still broken? [19:10:26] <rabauke> that's why there is the "new" kio [19:10:39] <remur_030> but sftp should stick around [19:10:43] <herby> sftp works well [19:10:50] <wstephenson> we could replace fish:// with a dummy ioslave that gives a warning, and offers a redirect to sftp://<url> [19:10:54] <rabauke> as far as I understood it, it's a all in one [19:11:17] <wstephenson> the new one uses libsmbclient instead of talking to the smbclient commandline over a pipe. [19:11:21] <wstephenson> faster and smarter. [19:11:24] <rabauke> sftp was never ftp anyway. [19:11:34] <wstephenson> a bit like KDE 4.3 ;)<plug> [19:12:01] <llunak> wstephenson: libssh :) [19:12:10] <rabauke> if the package is in, the settings can be changed later, I just thought that there was a deadline for new packages. [19:12:24] <llunak> haven't we already missed that deadline? [19:12:25] <wstephenson> llunak: YATLA [19:12:37] <remur_030> wasn't that last week? [19:12:47] <rabauke> hm, that might be, I just noticed it today... [19:13:04] <llunak> in that case the libssh dependency means WONTFIX I guess [19:13:09] <rabauke> ok, then via buildservice or as "bugfix" for the broken fish [19:13:42] <remur_030> is sftp not in? [19:13:42] <llunak> hmm ... factory has something called libssh2 [19:13:51] <wstephenson> llunak: why WONTFIX? crypto? [19:14:08] <llunak> wstephenson: no, new package - but maybe it's already there [19:14:16] <wstephenson> it's in my factory repo [19:14:24] <llunak> well, yes, crypto would probably apply there too [19:14:47] <wstephenson> no, i checked with ciaran, they haven't done the crypto bureaucracy yet [19:15:22] <Beineri> Mon, Aug 17 openSUSE 11.2 Crypto Freeze [19:16:04] <llunak> ok, factory has something called libssh, which is presumably the dependency [19:16:37] <llunak> so maybe somebody could handle packaging the new stuff and testing if it works better than what we have now? [19:16:57] <bitshuffler> wstephenson: replacing fish:// with a warning that it doesn't exist in 11.2 sucks imho pretty much (at least I use it pretty often and love it) [19:17:21] <wstephenson> bitshuffler: on servers that don't have sftp? [19:17:22] <rabauke> with the new slave it would exist :) [19:17:32] <remur_030> bitshuffler: sftp doesn't work? [19:17:41] <wstephenson> we could rename fish:// rottenoldfish:// [19:17:49] <rabauke> :D [19:18:02] <bitshuffler> wstephenson: remur_030 on a server that doesn't run ftp but only has ssh. [19:18:16] * bitshuffler fails to see why ftp is that widespread. [19:18:18] <remur_030> bitshuffler: sftp is part of openssh [19:18:26] <remur_030> it's not really ftp related [19:18:45] <bitshuffler> remur_030: hm, so you mean I could connect to sshd via sftp? [19:18:58] <remur_030> bitshuffler: that's what I am usually doing yes [19:18:59] <wstephenson> yes [19:19:15] <bitshuffler> oh well, if that works I'm fine. Just didn't know that. [19:19:38] <remur_030> bitshuffler: fish is running a script on the remote machine that you connect to afaik [19:19:38] <wstephenson> bitshuffler: try it and see [19:19:48] <wstephenson> i have an AI here [19:19:55] <wstephenson> that needs prompt action [19:19:58] <wstephenson> who wants it? [19:20:00] <tittiatcoke> I will take the packaging :-) [19:20:15] <wstephenson> i don't even know where it is in svn [19:20:19] <wstephenson> and gladiac is away [19:21:19] <llunak> http://lists.kde.org/?t=124947087900005&r=1&w=2 [19:21:29] <llunak> that is it, right? [19:21:41] <wstephenson> da [19:22:21] <wstephenson> factory needs a libssh version update from 0.3.0 to 0.3.2 [19:22:34] <wstephenson> llunak: i think one of us should take this, how are you for jobs? [19:23:00] <llunak> AI: ensure libssh version update to 0.3.2 (llunak) [19:23:04] <llunak> where do you see it needs that? [19:23:16] <wstephenson> llunak: in the announcement mail to kde-devel [19:23:30] <bitshuffler> 0.3.2 is here https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=libssh&project=network%3Asynchronization%3Afiles and builds for factory [19:23:40] <llunak> ok [19:23:41] <bitshuffler> llunak: ^ [19:23:59] <wstephenson> next [19:24:02] <wstephenson> * Default dolphin to editable or breadcrumb address-bar? [19:24:24] <llunak> who will package the kioslave itself? tittiatcoke ? [19:24:36] <rabauke> I'm for breadcrump [19:24:49] <tittiatcoke> llunak: I am fine with that one. [19:25:16] <Beineri> it was set in 11.1 to what it is to make kde 3.5 switchers feel more familiar [19:25:28] <llunak> AI: ensure packaging of the new kio_sftp (tittiatcoke) [19:26:11] <llunak> I think we can go with upstream default again [19:26:14] <Beineri> together with file dialog url bar [19:26:43] <llunak> but then I don't use dolphin, so maybe I should be quiet :) [19:26:48] <Beineri> so better don't change just one :-) [19:27:10] <wstephenson> why did we change it? [19:27:30] <Beineri> wstephenson: see above, and SLE PM input [19:27:33] <wstephenson> err "why, did we change it?" [19:27:35] <cb400f> I like editable myself.. but I'm torn on it [19:27:37] <wstephenson> ok [19:28:05] <cb400f> Beineri: do "we" know what the competition does here? [19:28:11] <Beineri> wstephenson: you don't remember the discussions? [19:28:21] <Beineri> cb400f: who? kubuntu? [19:28:25] <cb400f> and mandriva [19:28:40] <cb400f> and.. well... fedora [19:28:54] <Beineri> likely keep upstream setting [19:29:19] <llunak> cb400f: and have the most recent release of each of those, I can reboot to them and check [19:29:22] <Beineri> who added that on the meeting page? [19:29:33] <rabauke> if one clicks anywhere on the breadcrumb one gets the editable. if one has the editable one has to know that the icon on the far right is for the switch. [19:29:41] <rabauke> Beineri: me [19:29:44] <cb400f> yeah.. we should prolly do that.. I predict substantial migration of gnome users when distros release with 4.3 too.. might as well make them feel a little at home ;-) [19:29:58] <wstephenson> i prefer breadcrumb [19:30:16] <rabauke> I would even opt for adding th efilter bar by default :p [19:30:24] <Beineri> rabauke: "anywhere"? :-) [19:30:33] <llunak> breadcrumb is the default, right? so I guess it's clear [19:30:45] <llunak> Beineri: can you handle the setting? [19:30:47] <remur_030> rabauke: yeah I love the filter bar too [19:31:02] <rabauke> Beineri: almost, all the space empty on that row. [19:31:35] <rabauke> remur_030: then we should get that inot the next meeting :) [19:31:40] <Beineri> rabauke: and it that obvious? don't say tooltip. the vice-versa button is more visible [19:32:18] <rabauke> if one wants to edit the row one clicks on it. [19:32:35] <Beineri> "ah, that empty space on the screen has a functionality" ;-) [19:32:38] <rabauke> did not even notice the tooltip :) [19:32:43] <herby> Would be nice to have a toolbar button for activating the filterbar [19:33:22] <rabauke> ther eis a shortcut. [19:33:25] <wstephenson> hm, could be removed [19:33:32] <wstephenson> err, improved [19:33:50] <rabauke> anyway, we should probably proceed since those changes can be made later on in the 11.2 cycle? [19:34:07] <wstephenson> how to conclude this item? [19:34:19] <rabauke> breadcrump default [19:34:23] <Beineri> dumb question, with filter bar you mean the same as "Tools/Show Filter Bar"? [19:34:26] <rabauke> filter bar next meeting [19:34:38] <wstephenson> Beineri: that's what i thought [19:34:42] <Beineri> "[x] Show filter bar" in configuration doesn't show anything here [19:34:45] <rabauke> Beineri: I think yes, CTRL+I [19:34:57] <rabauke> Beineri: bug, restart dolhin [19:34:59] <rabauke> +p [19:35:40] <Beineri> rabauke: uhm, and when you click the filter bar away (this inviting red cross button) you have to restart it again to gain back? :-) [19:35:58] <cb400f> ctrl+i [19:36:18] <rabauke> I cannot find the bug right now, but I think there was one about that already. [19:36:41] <cb400f> but it's possible to add a toolbar button.. just no icon for it [19:37:20] <wstephenson> gissasec, i'll add one [19:37:27] <Beineri> cb400f: how is the action called? [19:37:30] <rabauke> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=174129 [19:37:32] <llunak> wstephenson: just assign the breadcrumb AI to Beineri, he's already going to play with the settings anyway >:) [19:37:33] <bugbot> KDE bug 174129 in dolphin (general) "filter-bar is not shown until restart" [Wishlist,New] [19:37:37] <wstephenson> cb400f: Show Filter Bar [19:39:01] <rabauke> Beineri: the bug report includes the answer as to why it is only started on restart... :/ [19:39:15] <remur_030> guys I need to leave in a few minutes, there is something I wanted to get off my mind about the kde as default discussion, I guess you all noticed it has been covered by alot of media in the meanwhile, this whole discussion is badly hurting opensuse as a project I think, we should cool down in there [19:40:02] <wstephenson> remur_030: what does that mean? [19:40:32] <remur_030> cb400f and llunak are pushing pretty hard, the news I read about this indicate the kde part beeing hardliners [19:40:57] <cb400f> we should definitely be careful it doesn't get out of hand... I'm not so sure it's hurting though.. getting some stuff off your chest might be good in the long run [19:41:09] <rabauke> remur_030: where did you read that? [19:41:13] <cb400f> i.e. we can have make-up-sex afterwards :-) [19:41:22] <wstephenson> i think they are being assertive, not aggressive [19:41:38] <rabauke> http://weblog.obso1337.org/2009/when-choice-becomes-a-burden/ [19:41:41] <remur_030> cb400f: yes it does, but I don't know if this will get opensuse-kde the positive news that are intended [19:41:59] <remur_030> rabauke: http://www.heise.de/open/Die-Woche-Viel-Laerm-um-wenig--/artikel/143159 (german...) [19:42:20] <llunak> I don't remember seeing anything that was negative about us [19:42:22] <wstephenson> remur_030: the lwn.net article and comments are supportive of the project making a default decision [19:42:28] <llunak> e.g. the lwn article [19:42:53] <remur_030> hrm, I haven't read the lwn article as I am haven't signed up yet, but that's nice then [19:43:04] <llunak> and if being a hardliner means I maintain my position and the other side tries everything they can come up, well then I am [19:43:43] <llunak> anyway, there's quiet now and I guess everybody is waiting for the decision [19:44:37] <wstephenson> i hope so [19:44:40] <remur_030> yeah, that's what I inteded with that, just lay low, it won't change the project decision now [19:44:52] <rabauke> remur_030: people that buy ct are certainly not "normal" users. computerbild might be valid... :) [19:45:11] <wstephenson> the "this will harm the project" stuff is a spoiler tactic [19:45:57] <Deanjo> not to mention being unfounded and pure speculation [19:46:09] <llunak> I don't think we can solve anything about this problem in this meeting [19:46:09] <remur_030> rabauke: well heise open is the defacto german news source for linux stuff =/ pro-linux was similar [19:46:40] <wstephenson> i've said several times that if opensuse as a whole grows, everyone benefits - and a default to KDE is the obvious way to achieve growth [19:46:42] <rabauke> remur_030: even that author admits that a discussion whether to have a selction or not makes sense. [19:47:17] <wstephenson> what i didn't appreciate is how much the gnome community describes itself as a weak minority [19:47:18] <rabauke> default meaningn pre-selected but still showing all others I guess? [19:47:43] <remur_030> rabauke: yes, but the discussion got so charged around it came down to repeating arguments and just lots of loud opinions [19:47:56] <javier_> i suggest pre-selecting kde while leaving the other options [19:48:07] <remur_030> rabauke: that's what ajaeger currently suggested [19:48:15] <rabauke> I agree with llunak, we should proceed with the meeting. [19:48:18] <llunak> the heise article is missing the point anyway - it's not about the damn install UI [19:48:19] <remur_030> he also carefully avoided saying kde will be default in his agenda [19:48:34] <rabauke> remur_030: AFAIK that's all this was ever about. [19:48:40] <rabauke> pre-select [19:48:45] <remur_030> yes, sorry I just wanted to get it of my chest anyway as the news were looking at the thread and the climate in there wasn't healthy [19:48:54] <remur_030> rabauke: frank sure wanted more... [19:48:55] <javier_> and putting KDE before GNOME [19:49:09] <javier_> before, it was like that... KDE and then GNOME [19:49:15] <wstephenson> remur_030: aj's last proposition removes the default again, in favour of rearranging the deckchairs [19:49:22] <llunak> Beineri: will you take the breadcrump setting AI or should I? [19:49:26] <remur_030> anyways, I'll leave konversation running but gotta go, will read up later =) [19:49:27] <wstephenson> yes lets move on [19:49:39] <Beineri> llunak: that's dolphin + kfile? [19:49:44] <llunak> yes [19:49:52] <Beineri> llunak: ok. [19:50:08] <Beineri> what was the conclusion about filter bar? I wouldn't add it by default... [19:50:23] <llunak> AI: breadcrumb setting (Beineri) [19:50:38] <javier_> +1 [19:51:20] * wstephenson just added the filter icon to the action [19:51:53] <Beineri> on your system? upstream? [19:52:00] <Beineri> filter icon looks higher than other icons on the toolbar, or? [19:52:13] <wstephenson> am sending a patch upstream. don't want to tread on their toes [19:52:35] <Beineri> view-filter icon [19:52:44] <Beineri> no so toolbar button either? [19:55:24] <wstephenson> no [19:55:39] <wstephenson> * YaST2 "Community Repositories" for 11.2 (Community (kde3 and/or kde4?) Backports?) [19:55:49] <wstephenson> any motion on that? [19:55:57] <cb400f> that's my point [19:56:12] <cb400f> we should plan what to have in yast "community repos".. [19:56:32] <cb400f> I think it's clear we want kde:kde4:community there [19:56:38] <wstephenson> other candidates? [19:56:49] <cb400f> do we want to keep kde:community as well? .. I'm not sure [19:57:12] <cb400f> and what do we do with kde4 backports? (eg. koffice 2.1 or whatever might turn up) [19:57:34] <llunak> +1 for kde4:backports [19:57:43] <javier_> kde4:playground? [19:57:45] <cb400f> use kde:backports for kde4 backports too? or use kde:kde4:community for backports? ... or special kde:kde4:backports? [19:58:19] <cb400f> I'm very much against having kde4:playground in community repos [19:58:26] <llunak> does backports start as empty after release and then new versions get added? [19:58:29] <cb400f> that's for geeks [19:58:36] <javier_> :D [19:58:38] <tittiatcoke> I agree. Playground is not really suited for the average user [19:58:48] <javier_> ok [19:58:51] <cb400f> unless some apps release between opensuse feature freeze and opensuse release I guess ;-) [19:59:12] <javier_> like konversation? [19:59:13] <llunak> and I would be against kde3 repos there - those that still want them should know enough to add them manually [19:59:43] <javier_> +1, no kde3 repos [19:59:51] <cb400f> what's kde3? ;-) [19:59:55] <Beineri> cb400f: playground is a no-go for sure :-) [20:00:06] <wstephenson> llunak: +1 [20:00:12] <tittiatcoke> javier_: konversation is in KKFD now also [20:00:18] <llunak> if kde:backports gets flushed for 11.2, then I think just one backports it enough [20:00:36] <Beineri> will there be again an abitrary limit how many repositories each sub-project can have in community repo list? [20:00:37] <javier_> excellent :-) [20:00:56] <llunak> Beineri: I don't know [20:01:14] <Beineri> llunak: why kde4:backports additionally to kde:backports? [20:01:43] <llunak> Beineri: I wouldn't want to have kde3 stuff in backports [20:01:44] <Beineri> current kde:backports contains kde4 stuff (if it builds) already [20:02:07] <llunak> Beineri: I mean, not the one that is not in 11.2 [20:02:21] <Beineri> llunak: then disable those kde3 stuff for 11.2 target? 11.2 will have to register kde:kde3 anyway then [20:02:23] <llunak> Beineri: but that can be done by disabling builds for 11.2 for those I guess? [20:02:33] <llunak> ok, then just kde:backports [20:03:12] <Beineri> llunak: question, what's with kde3 stuff that's still in Factory? kdbg, quanta, ... ? :-) [20:03:27] <llunak> Beineri: discussed above - I will send a list [20:03:38] <Beineri> do you expect them all to be dropped? [20:03:44] <llunak> no, probably not [20:03:58] <Beineri> so some kde3 stuff may stay in kde:backports? [20:04:12] <Beineri> which are really backports and not links to kde:kde3? [20:04:24] <llunak> Beineri: yes - my point was not to put there stuff which isn't in 11.2 - I didn't think of just disabling the build for 11.2 for those [20:04:34] <wstephenson> Beineri: new versions of those packages? [20:04:50] <wstephenson> or other kde3 things that still release because quanta etc set a precedent? [20:05:01] <Beineri> wstephenson: umtsmon ;-( [20:05:32] <Beineri> is next kmymoney kde4 based? [20:05:58] <llunak> Beineri: no such release yet, last kde3 release this february [20:06:10] <Beineri> wstephenson: some odd project will continue with kde3 versions ;-) [20:06:17] <llunak> this would be one of those I'd suggest to keep [20:06:41] <Beineri> ok [20:07:01] <llunak> anyway, so community repos for yast would be kde:kde4:community and kde:backports, right? [20:07:27] <rabauke> http://soliverez.com.ar/drupal/node/83 is about kde4 and klmymoney [20:07:40] <Beineri> GNOME had in 11.1 GNOME:STABLE in list iirc [20:07:50] <Beineri> dunno if they used it for major upgrades [20:08:25] <wstephenson> llunak: yup [20:08:44] <llunak> Beineri: we don't do major upgrades there, so IMO there's not much sense in that one [20:09:05] <llunak> most of that should end up in online update anyway [20:09:29] <Beineri> llunak: looking back, would you have said that we will have KDE:42 one day? :-) [20:09:31] <wstephenson> is that decided then? [20:09:51] <cb400f> I'm happy [20:09:55] <llunak> Beineri: no, but I don't see how it's relevant here [20:10:08] <cb400f> I guess if we poke the responsible people hard enough it's possible to change later [20:10:17] <cb400f> since the list is downloaded [20:10:40] <Beineri> but I guess people are fine with adding a (ever changing) repo manually if they want a major kde upgrade as until now... [20:11:09] <Beineri> cb400f: good point [20:11:18] * cb400f hopes they'll be so happy with 4.3 they idea won't cross their minds.. unless they know what they're doing [20:11:37] <wstephenson> i don't think major desktop version bumps are a good idea via community repos. [20:11:49] <wstephenson> cb400f: until 4.4. ;) [20:11:58] <Beineri> likely not more than advertizing major bumps 1-clicks :-) [20:12:46] <wstephenson> highly bumpy 1 -clicks [20:12:48] <wstephenson> ok, so [20:12:53] <wstephenson> # Slow kde/plasma start since 4.3 [20:12:58] <wstephenson> that is the last agenda item [20:13:11] <Beineri> wstephenson: not really, or? [20:13:12] <wstephenson> apparently there was a pixmapcache mistake added late on [20:13:16] <cb400f> did llunak take the ai of poking c-oolo? [20:13:24] <cb400f> about comm repos [20:13:42] <llunak> no, but I can :) [20:13:58] <llunak> AI: tell Coolo about the list of community repositories (llunak) [20:14:21] <Beineri> wstephenson: dunno where you hid status or q/a :-) [20:14:25] <llunak> wstephenson: then let's just update the branch? [20:14:52] <wstephenson> llunak: ack [20:14:55] <wstephenson> i'll take that [20:15:08] <wstephenson> AI: wstephenson patch out plasma pixmapcache bug [20:15:40] <Beineri> llunak: there was just an workspace branch update? [20:15:48] <llunak> actually, yes [20:16:12] <llunak> wstephenson: so maybe it's enough to check [20:16:19] <Beineri> any svn revision with the fix? [20:16:23] <remur_030> heya, back already, about the kde3 repositories I made a feature entry a month ago, https://features.opensuse.org/306733 , shall I delete it? or can someone reject it? [20:16:36] <Beineri> or is it in kdelibs plasma? [20:17:10] <llunak> could be kdelibs ... I'd leave finding that out as a part of the AI [20:17:35] <llunak> remur_030: yes, the conclusion here should mean that this feature is refused [20:17:43] <Beineri> 1006976 & 1007006 - are in libs [20:18:05] <llunak> KDE3 repo is unmaintained, after all, so we shouldn't just easily suggest it [20:18:14] <llunak> I will reject the feature, unless somebody sees it differently [20:18:32] * coolo will refuse to add any unmaintained repo [20:18:40] <remur_030> llunak: please go ahead [20:18:52] <coolo> community list is for popular repos - and KDE3 isn't even popular among 11.1 users (despite what some noisy people claim) [20:18:58] <Beineri> KDE3 kdepim3 and other stuff doesn't even build.. [20:19:05] <llunak> that makes it even simpler [20:19:27] <llunak> there was one agenda item skipped: [20:19:29] <Beineri> volunteer who likes c++ templates wanted ;-) [20:19:34] <llunak> * If firefox is default in 11.2, how do users import their bookmarks from konqueror? [20:19:55] <llunak> the answer is that the default applies only to new users, so this cannot happen [20:20:38] <llunak> wstephenson: ok, let's move to the status and q/a part, so that we can wrap up [20:20:52] <wstephenson> Status [20:21:06] <wstephenson> who wants to show and tell? [20:21:10] <llunak> 4.3.0 has been released, just in case you don't know :) [20:21:17] <Beineri> llunak: is that so difficult? keditbookmarks --exportmoz .... [20:21:38] <llunak> Beineri: but it cannot happen - if you are a new user, you don't have konqueror bookmarks [20:21:42] <llunak> oh [20:21:46] <llunak> you mean default ones? [20:21:49] <rabauke> importing from firefox is not possible, at least it failed for me. [20:22:15] <Beineri> or can't firefox import konqueror bookmarks (maybe it tries by default ~/.kde) ? [20:22:41] <rabauke> if we recommend firefox, that's for a reason, so migrating should be possible. [20:23:00] <rabauke> Beineri: I think it looks for html files. [20:23:15] <Beineri> rabauke: kde booksmarks are... no, xul is wroing :-) [20:23:26] <Beineri> xbel [20:23:39] <rabauke> might be, yet it does not work for the user. [20:24:04] <FL1SK> is KDE 4.3 final in the build yet? [20:24:13] <remur_030> FL1SK: already published [20:24:15] <llunak> there are no kde-specific default bookmarks in konqueror [20:24:18] <FL1SK> nice [20:24:21] <llunak> and firefox has its own default bookmarks [20:24:21] <FL1SK> which repo [20:24:34] <remur_030> FL1SK: the usual, KDE4:Factory:Desktop [20:24:43] <FL1SK> k [20:24:52] <llunak> and, I repeat, there are no bookmarks in ~/.kde4 to import, since the firefox default is only for new users [20:25:00] * Beineri thinks a one-time run on update call of keditbookmarks --exportmoz... if konq bookmark but not firefox bookmark exists can't hurt [20:25:26] <rabauke> llunak: true, but if we recommend firefox for a reason, old users might want to use it as well, i.e. migrate. [20:25:52] <llunak> rabauke: but how do you check that? what if they already use it, from the desktop icon? [20:26:02] <llunak> hmm [20:26:07] <wstephenson> guys, i have to leave [20:26:08] <cb400f> I don't think it'll be much of a problem [20:26:11] <rabauke> llunak: no need to check, if the import works. [20:26:14] <wstephenson> 2.5 hours and i have to cook tonight. [20:26:29] <rabauke> wstephenson: guten appetit! [20:26:45] <cb400f> I figure most people use FF before too.. except some fanboys, and they'll make konq the default again [20:27:01] <rabauke> cb400f: I try to switch... :) [20:27:13] <rabauke> but it's not big issue, that's right. [20:27:14] <cb400f> which direction? ;-) [20:27:21] <rabauke> konq -> ff [20:27:24] <llunak> wstephenson: in that case just ask if there is still something to discuss, if not, wrap up [20:27:26] * herby loves konqueror [20:27:34] * wstephenson asks the question [20:27:38] <llunak> we can discuss the bookmarks "unofficially" afterwards [20:27:42] <wstephenson> what else have we got to discuss? [20:27:43] <tittiatcoke> What about the automount option ? [20:27:51] <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: i'm reviewing the code [20:27:55] <wstephenson> see above already discussed [20:27:58] <tittiatcoke> Ok :-) [20:27:58] * rabauke loves the GUi and integration, does not like the website rendering and javascript... [20:28:03] * Beineri knows everything that would be told in status likely anyway ;-) [20:28:47] <tittiatcoke> Guess I missed that one. Was most likely at the beginning of the meeting [20:29:04] <wstephenson> KNM continues to improve. no more status. Thanks for attending, now informal discussion