KDE/Meetings/2008 08 06-transcript

[18:01:39] Topic dirk sets the channel topic to "Welcome to the openSUSE KDE IRC Community meeting!". [18:03:01] <dirk> agena [18:03:04] <dirk> * old action items [18:03:15] <dirk> * status (kdepim update? KDE 4.0.x updates for 11.0?) [18:03:19] <dirk> * KDE 3.x on 11.1 planning [18:03:24] <dirk> * Bug squashing day [18:03:28] <dirk> * misc/Q&A [18:03:36] <dirk> anything I'm missing [18:03:38] <dirk> ? [18:03:59] <suser> (agenda) [18:04:17] <Seli> now already? [18:04:23] <Seli> I need to leave at 7pm :( [18:05:05] <dirk> Seli: thats why we do it earlier :) [18:05:17] <dirk> okay, seeems not.. so lets start [18:05:17] <Seli> well, anyway, go ahead [18:05:22] <dirk> * old action items [18:05:37] <dirk> I'm looking at this page: [18:05:40] <dirk> http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Meetings/20080723 [18:05:51] <dirk> * add packaging guideline for kde4 packages [18:06:28] <dirk> any progress.. Beineri? [18:06:50] <Beineri> no? [18:07:01] <dirk> ok.. [18:07:10] <dirk> * wiki page for KDE4 testing (bille) [18:07:39] <dirk> wstephenson: any progress? [18:07:47] <wstephenson> not yet [18:08:03] <wstephenson> none [18:08:41] <dirk> * write rpm QA documentation (mrdocs) [18:08:52] <dirk> mrdocs: around? [18:10:05] <dirk> seems not.. [18:10:15] <dirk> * organize scratch space for bug triage images, WIP (jpr) [18:10:28] <dirk> I hear jpr in the hallway, so I have to queue that action item for later [18:10:45] <dirk> * drkonqi/apport plans (metavoid) [18:10:48] <dirk> metavoid: around? [18:11:06] <dirk> Seli: did you talk to metavoid about your debuginfo handler for drkonqi? [18:11:28] <Seli> dirk: not besides these meetings IIRC [18:12:32] <dirk> is the debuginfo handler already active in our packages? [18:12:32] <metavoid> dirk: yes? [18:12:46] <dirk> I've not followed the discussion completely, but it looks like we have to write an opensuse specific hook script? [18:13:21] <metavoid> what debuginfo handler? [18:14:06] <Seli> metavoid: I've written a drkonqi patch that analyses the backtrace better (for detecting it as useless etc.) and also offers installing debuginfo packages if needed [18:14:30] <metavoid> ah, ok? [18:14:45] <metavoid> Seli: how do you install packages btw? [18:14:53] <suser> yast :) [18:14:58] <Seli> metavoid: run a distro script [18:15:01] <suser> ooops, I'm not Sali [18:15:16] <metavoid> Seli: where can I find it? [18:15:53] <Seli> metavoid: http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=121784731227583&w=2 [18:17:14] <Seli> metavoid: can you keep reading that for later please, so that we can move on now? [18:17:23] <metavoid> Seli: thx [18:17:28] <dirk> okay, so discuss further later [18:17:38] <dirk> * KDE3 live cd [18:17:52] <dirk> cgoncalves created one [18:18:44] <Beineri> cgoncalves gave something yesterday to proctol because he can't attend today... [18:18:51] <dirk> I'm rereading the protocol [18:19:11] <dirk> "I plan to keep creating KDE3 LiveCDs if openSUSE doesn't support it officially" [18:19:27] <dirk> "after his holiday its ok for me any time" [18:19:32] <dirk> so thats good news [18:19:42] <dirk> he didn't mention how long is vacation is though :) [18:19:44] <Beineri> http://cgoncalves.blogspot.com/2008/08/opensuse-110-kde3-live-cds.html if anyone wonders [18:20:01] <dirk> so the AI is done .. :) [18:20:19] <dirk> * put 11.0 feature priorities into the Ideas wiki page (Seli) [18:20:24] <Beineri> done [18:20:52] <dirk> * find a volunteer to package TouchFreeze or update KSynaptics (Bille) [18:21:31] <wstephenson> aorlovskyy wasn't too keen but maybe when he gets back from his holiday [18:22:06] <wstephenson> maybe i'll find someone at akademy [18:22:35] <dirk> * organize bug day (cgoncalves, maybe with apokryphos or cb400f) [18:23:47] <dirk> cgoncalves said yesterday that "anytime after his vaction is okay" :) [18:23:56] <dirk> cb400f: ping [18:23:56] <wstephenson> was cb400f there last meeting when we suggested this? [18:23:59] <dirk> apokryphos: ping [18:24:22] <cb400f> should be possible [18:24:50] <dirk> when? :) [18:25:13] <cb400f> dunno.. when is cgoncalves' vacation? [18:25:37] <dirk> it started today [18:25:38] <cb400f> maybe around 11.1 feature freeze would be a good time? [18:25:53] <dirk> I guess.. that would be mid of september [18:27:01] <dirk> any idea if it should be on a weekend or during the week? [18:27:11] <dirk> we used to do fridays but that didn't produce that many responses afaik [18:27:34] <wstephenson> weekends seem to work for KDE [18:28:35] <wstephenson> looks like cgoncalves hasn't mailed the lists about the kde 3 live cds [18:29:06] <Beineri> maybe he wants to have feedback first and then make a 1.0 version [18:30:41] <dirk> cb400f: suggestions? [18:31:48] <dirk> -etimeout [18:32:00] <dirk> okay, we're done with the action items [18:32:11] <dirk> * status (kdepim update? KDE 4.0.x updates for 11.0?) [18:32:46] <wstephenson> i got groupwise working last week. [18:33:11] <wstephenson> i still need to fix the missing account LVIs in kmail config, then it should be good to go [18:34:36] <Munix> I have noticed that my updater is installing yet another lot of kde 4.0.1 updates now [18:34:49] <Beineri> 4.0.4? [18:35:02] <Munix> yes 4.0.4 - ??? [18:35:38] <dirk> wstephenson: timeline? [18:35:44] <Munix> when I log out and back in again everything appears on desktop 1 [18:35:59] <dirk> Munix: we're in a meeting, please wait until later [18:36:04] <Beineri> !bugzilla @ Munix [18:36:05] <SUSEhelp> Beineri: https://bugzilla.novell.com/buglist.cgi?content=@ [18:36:10] <wstephenson> dirk: maybe tomorrow, depending how i get on since a knetworkmanager4 in autobuild is higher prio... [18:36:31] <Beineri> !bugs @ Munix [18:36:31] <SUSEhelp> Munix: The Novell Bugzilla database is at http://bugzilla.novell.com. Please read http://en.opensuse.org/Bug_Reporting_FAQ before reporting any bugs. [18:36:41] <dirk> wstephenson: are there any packages to test? did you announce them? are they in the buildservice? [18:37:47] <wstephenson> dirk: they are in STABLE:, yes [18:37:55] * jpr returns [18:38:02] <jpr> (no progress) [18:38:04] <wstephenson> no, i didn't announce them yet [18:38:47] <dirk> okay.. how about we do that as an action item? and wait 1-2 weeks for feedback from early testers before doing it as an online update? [18:40:15] <wstephenson> sure [18:40:26] <wstephenson> i've had quite a bit of feedback already as bugs [18:40:36] <dirk> AI: wstephenson: announce 4.1 update packages for stable [18:40:54] <dirk> I don't see any 11.0 updates in the fix-is ready queue [18:41:02] <dirk> anyone knows about something urgent to fix? [18:41:49] <wstephenson> no [18:42:13] <Beineri> no [18:42:24] * dirk has some status reports :) [18:42:25] <Seli> no [18:42:33] <dirk> KDE 4.1.0 was packaged, its in the KDE:KDE4:Factory:Desktop repository [18:42:47] <dirk> KDE 4.2 (trunk) snapshots have been packaged in the KDE:KDE4:UNSTABLE:Desktop repo [18:43:20] <dirk> * KDE 3.x on 11.1 planning [18:43:43] <dirk> unfortunately yaloki seems to be away, he brought it up in the last opensuse-project meeting [18:43:48] <wstephenson> somebody want to give some background? [18:44:02] <suser2> well, me, [18:44:11] <suser2> but it may be a bit subjective [18:44:26] <dirk> http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Project_Meeting_2008-07-30/transcript [18:44:41] <dirk> basically, what it sums up to is: [18:44:42] <suser2> so I prefer no to... [18:44:55] <dirk> space on the DVD is limited, putting KDE3 and KDE4 on it will be almost impossible [18:45:15] <dirk> so we do have to do some tradeoff, like only putting the base kde3 distro on DVD and provide the rest via ftp tree [18:45:50] <dirk> and then the question was if we want to have it in the installer desktop selection dialog of if its fine if its just available in the patterns dialog [18:47:13] <suser2> Yes, KDE 3 must be kept along KDE 4 [18:47:19] <wstephenson> does putting it in the installer imply having more than the base desktop? [18:47:58] <dirk> suser2: thats not the question [18:48:03] <dirk> we will keep kde3 around for 11.1 [18:48:15] <dirk> the question is if it has to be on the DVD, or if a kde3 livecd is enough (for example) [18:48:23] <suser2> Yes, it needs to be visible in the installer along KDE 4 and GNOME [18:48:23] <dirk> or a pattern which also points to ftp tree packages [18:48:41] <suser2> It needs to be on the DVD absolutely [18:48:42] <wstephenson> will there be an easier way to register more repos before the software installation, so that we could have it in the installer, and install the whole desktop pattern at install time? [18:48:44] <Beineri> suser2: why? [18:49:11] <Beineri> wstephenson: no, that was in 10.3 and not anymore in 11.0 [18:49:13] <suser2> Because KDE 4 is totally different (KDE4 is not an easy upgrade for KDE users) [18:49:39] <Beineri> "it needs to be in the installer because it's different"? [18:50:00] <suser2> ok, put in in other words: KDE 4 is alien to KDE users [18:50:00] <Beineri> doesn't sound like a valid reason to me [18:50:16] <wstephenson> suser2: do you mean that if kde4 was an easy upgrade, it would be ok to drop kde 3? [18:50:17] <dirk> suser2: why? [18:50:25] <suser2> For this reason, KDE 3 must be kept, and have status similar to KDE 4 [18:50:25] <dirk> suser2: because its an upgrade issue? [18:50:30] <dirk> suser2: or because its different? [18:51:01] <suser2> KDE 4 doesn't feels like an upgrade for KDE3, rather it feels like completely different desktop [18:51:16] <dirk> yes, thats why it is a new major version :) [18:51:25] <jpr> if "different" is the criteria, how long would kde3 expected to be supported [18:51:35] <jpr> given that upstream dev support has already mostly died off? [18:51:40] <suser2> But the problem is that it doesn't fulfills the needs of current users [18:52:06] <Beineri> suser2: which are... ? [18:52:15] <suser2> jpr: as long as KDE4 doesn't have all the necessary functionality. [18:52:23] <Beineri> suser2: which are... ? [18:52:59] <suser2> many: it includes having unable to align icons, or make quicklaunch buttons near start menu [18:53:00] <Beineri> suser2: please have a look at http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Ideas/11.1 and add what you think is urgently missing [18:53:17] <wstephenson> suser2: we need to collect this data so we can push upstream to do it or fix it ourselves... or we will still have kde3 in 2020 [18:53:24] <Beineri> suse2: application start buttons can be added to the start panel [18:53:58] <suser2> Not start panel., but quicklaunch panel (i.e. kicker in old terms) [18:54:01] <dirk> suser2: you can move the icons to where you want them to have them [18:54:15] <suser2> You cant place icons via right click as in KDE3/ or Windows. [18:54:20] <Beineri> are drag'n'drop from start menu right to the position where you want to have it [18:54:24] <suser2> This very much kills user experience [18:54:53] <Beineri> suser2: right, it's not down with left-click in manipulation mode :-) [18:54:57] <Beineri> s/not/now/ [18:55:15] <wstephenson> suser2: do you mean the quicklaunch applet that let you have tiny icons in a single group on the panel, or individual (same size as the k menu) app launcher icons? [18:55:25] <suser2> besides lots of programs are unstable - and lacking features [18:55:25] * dirk taps on the clock [18:55:44] <suser2> KRDC 4 is crashing, and forgets keyboard input, and unable to use special keys [18:56:04] <dirk> suser2: krdc4 crash was fixed, and keyboard special keys was fixed as well [18:56:10] <suser2> Same goes for many of KDE 4 apps [18:56:11] <dirk> just ~ a week ago [18:56:28] <Beineri> http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/iquicklauncher?content=21375 [18:56:45] <suser2> wstephenson: I'm speaking about both. [18:56:48] <Beineri> uhm, wrong KDE version :-) [18:56:56] <dirk> there was a good summary from cb400f about pain with kde4: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-08/msg00017.html [18:57:26] <suser2> iquicklauncher looks good. [18:57:31] <Beineri> http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/QuickLauncher+Applet?content=78061 [18:57:31] <suser2> I need to try this one. [18:58:05] <Beineri> http://software.opensuse.org/search?baseproject=openSUSE%3A11.0&p=1&q=plasmoid-quicklauncher [18:58:11] <suser2> Now, this needs to be integrated into KDE4 and all will be well :) [18:58:40] <suser2> I will look into it. [18:59:01] <Beineri> as said, please add to the Ideas wiki page [18:59:05] <suser2> Now Konqueror 4 - it is not intuitive, because it doesn't shows full path in "address bar". [18:59:25] <Beineri> do you mean Dolphin? [19:01:13] <suser2> I mean both Dolphin and Konqueror 4 - they are much worse than Konqueror 3. [19:02:28] <dirk> konqueror 4 behaves like kde 3's konqueror in that regard [19:02:55] <Beineri> any other general Q/A? :-) [19:03:12] <dirk> suser2: the full path is configurable (try right click), and if you double click on it, you get the old location bar that you're used to [19:04:03] <wstephenson> dirk, suser2: it would be perhaps an idea to make a migration guide by working together with suser2 to find these pain points and document them for when we do switch completely to kde 4 [19:04:38] <suser2> I agree to participate, as I'm one of the heavy KDE3 users who dislikes KDE4 [19:05:00] <suser2> (except new savable searches on KDE4 desktop- which is great!) [19:05:08] <dirk> it would be possible to do screencasts for common problems [19:05:29] <dirk> like "how do I add an icon to the panel" [19:06:00] <dirk> I can understand that people do not have the time to relearn their desktop [19:06:12] <dirk> another option would be to configure kde4 more kde3-like to ease the migration pain [19:06:28] <suser2> I think we need to go both ways :) [19:06:50] <dirk> would you like to help with giving input on what you miss / would like to have changed in the configuration etc? [19:07:01] <suser2> I'm willing to participate in KDE4 user problems [19:07:17] <suser2> plus it would be nice to have KDE4 configured like KDE3 by default [19:07:32] <suser2> yes [19:07:34] <dirk> its not possible to do that *complety* [19:07:42] <suser2> I understand [19:07:44] <dirk> so we can only do it for specific options [19:08:12] <dirk> but if we got a feeling on what hurts people most from switching (we get a bit from hallway chat) then that can be fixed [19:09:13] <suser2> It doesn't need to be completely like KDE3, otherwise it won't be a change, right :) ? [19:09:34] <suser2> But it doesn't need to feel like total alien too... [19:09:48] <dirk> exactly [19:10:10] <dirk> suser2: can you make a list of things that completely alienate you and put them on a wiki page or into an email? [19:10:16] <suser2> For example, by default it would be nice for KDE4 desktop to point to ~/Desktop [19:10:28] <suser2> so users will have icons on KDE4 desktop [19:10:47] <dirk> .. yes.. in general I want to wrap up the meeting now [19:10:48] <suser2> Yes, plz give me your emails [19:10:54] <dirk> we can go over your list in the next meeting [19:10:59] <dirk> suser2: opensuse-kde@opensuse.org [19:11:09] <suser2> ahh ok, mass email :) [19:11:16] <dirk> suser2: you have to subscribe first though [19:11:33] <suser2> you're known there as dirk ? [19:11:48] <dirk> suser2: or a wiki page under en.opensuse.org/KDE/Ideas/11.1 [19:11:52] <suser2> I'm known in emails as Alexey "Technologov" :) [19:11:55] <dirk> suser2: yes [19:11:57] <suser2> ok [19:12:05] <dirk> suser2: okay, will recognize you then ;) [19:12:10] <dirk> * Q&A [19:12:14] <dirk> I think we're through otherwise.. [19:12:20] <dirk> next meeting will be after akademy 2008 [19:12:39] <dirk> August 20th [19:12:54] <wstephenson> suser2: i should have recognised you ;) [19:13:41] <dirk> I have a question: [19:13:49] <dirk> anything we should keep in mind for akademy next week? [19:14:16] <suser2> no, but plz still have KDE3.x available from SUSE 11.1 [19:14:30] <suser2> along other options (KDE4/GNOME), with similar priority :) [19:14:36] <suser2> *for [19:15:00] <dirk> akademy 2008: http://akademy2008.kde.org/ [19:15:17] <dirk> there will be a talk starring openSUSE, held by Beineri [19:15:23] <wstephenson> dirk: we should blog every day :) [19:16:22] <Beineri> wstephenson: lead by example ;-) [19:18:16] <suser2> OK, thank you very much [19:19:59] <suser2> So, end of meeting ? [19:20:29] <dirk> yes [19:20:36] <suser2> goodbye