KDE/Meetings/2008 05 14-transcript

From openSUSE

[20:01:56] <Beineri>	so, "Welcome to the openSUSE KDE team meeting!"
[20:02:12] <Beineri>	do we have an agenda? :-)
[20:02:31] <Beineri>	usually we have
[20:02:36] <Beineri>	* old action items
[20:02:39] Join	_Z has joined this channel (n=nome@189-31-167-104.bsace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br).
[20:02:39] <Beineri>	* status
[20:02:47] <Beineri>	* stuff from the wiki page
[20:02:50] <Beineri>	* misc/QA
[20:02:53] Nick	_Z is now known as _ZORD_.
[20:02:53] <Beineri>	anything else?
[20:02:54] 	 * dirk has oxygen<-> suse oxygen  / default theming
[20:03:07] <Beineri>	that's also on http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Meetings/
[20:03:52] <Beineri>	there were no new action items last time? http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Meetings/20080430
[20:03:54] <dirk>	yeah, mine is about renaming oxygen to suseoxygen and about the blurry icons in the taskbar
[20:04:12] <Beineri>	* add packaging guideline for kde4 packages
[20:04:29] <dirk>	no progress :(
[20:04:33] <Beineri>	still no volunteer?
[20:04:59] <dirk>	mrdocs kind of volunteered some time ago :)
[20:05:36] <Beineri>	* more blogging (all) :)
[20:05:51] 	 * Beineri still waits for dirk's first post on http://lizards.opensuse.org/ :-)
[20:06:25] <Beineri>	* talk to zonker/announce bug day (beineri)
[20:06:28] <Beineri>	uhm, yeah.
[20:06:31] <Beineri>	jbrockmeier: let's talk ;-)
[20:06:34] <dirk>	Beineri: I could blog about my new workstation :)
[20:06:49] <Beineri>	dirk: not sure this would be on-topic :-)
[20:07:10] <Beineri>	jbrockmeier: when are the next Bugsquash team days, is KDE planned as a topic? :-)
[20:08:25] <Beineri>	3...2... 1
[20:08:32] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: KDE is planned
[20:08:44] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: a date is not yet set, though.
[20:08:53] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: maybe we should do one next week?
[20:08:55] <Beineri>	jbrockmeier: roughly before or after 11.0 release? :-)
[20:09:18] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: I think before would be better, yeah?
[20:09:19] <Beineri>	jbrockmeier: what day?
[20:09:36] 	 * Beineri thinks the last one on Friday was not so successfull.
[20:09:39] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: as I understand it, Thursday is a holiday, right?
[20:09:50] <Beineri>	thursday is a public holiday, at least in Germany
[20:09:56] <Beineri>	(or Bavaria)
[20:10:18] <Beineri>	22th
[20:10:24] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: well, I was thinking Friday would be the best day, but I'm open to suggestions.
[20:10:41] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: do we have KDE folks willing to assist? :-)
[20:10:49] <Beineri>	would be also someone there on Saturday?
[20:11:07] <cb400f>	hm, grundleborg spoke of upstream kde bugsquashing earlier
[20:11:18] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: I'm going to be in NUE next week, so I'm available any day
[20:11:27] <Beineri>	yeah, KDE does some Konqueror bug screening on Sunday iirc
[20:12:17] <Beineri>	what would be our focus? kde4? kde3 bugs of old releases?
[20:12:21] <cb400f>	.. and every two weeks.. would it make sense to coordinate? .. or better to keep things apart?
[20:12:47] <Beineri>	cb400f: imo keep apart, the clean up KDE Bugzilla and we want to cleanup our :-)
[20:13:10] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: aren't most of the bugs against KDE with openSUSE also upstream?
[20:13:34] Quit	_ZORD_ has left this server ("CyberScript - O único script que cuida de sua mulher enquanto o ricardão não chega. (www.cyberscript.org)").
[20:13:37] <Beineri>	jbrockmeier: maybe, who knows before :-)
[20:13:50] 	 * dirk is not around next weekend
[20:13:54] <jbrockmeier>	who else in the meeting is willing to help with a bug day? I can put up an announcement pretty quickly if we settle on a date and I know we've got participants.
[20:14:09] <Beineri>	dirk: what about Friday?
[20:15:09] <dirk>	to be clear, I'll be away from 22nd-26th
[20:15:12] 	 * Beineri detects lack of participants :-|
[20:16:14] <Beineri>	so fallback to plan A and big bug screening after release of KDE3 bugs?
[20:16:55] <cb400f>	maybe even wait for 4.1 and include 4.0 bugs?
[20:16:56] <dirk>	makes most sense to me
[20:17:20] <Beineri>	cb400f: we can make two sesions, not necessary to do everything in one :-)
[20:17:32] <dirk>	cb400f: there is not much difference between 4.0 4.1 bugs at this point in time.. but maybe around 11.1 development there will be
[20:17:47] <cb400f>	ok
[20:18:09] <jpr>	so, i'd like to have a 10.3 review for gnome too
[20:18:15] <jpr>	so maybe we can do a joint day
[20:18:19] <jpr>	for gnome/kde
[20:18:25] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: ? you mean beta 3?
[20:18:29] <jpr>	ie 'desktop bug squash day'
[20:18:46] <Beineri>	jbrockmeier: with "release"? no, 11.0 final
[20:19:03] <jbrockmeier>	cb400f, dirk -- what about cleaning things up for 11.0?
[20:19:05] 	 * mrdocs waves
[20:19:22] <mrdocs>	dirk: yeah i need to write the rpm QA page
[20:19:40] <dirk>	jpr: whats the advantage of doing one together?
[20:19:45] 	 * cyberorg would be available for testing on bug day if required
[20:19:52] <dirk>	jpr: more work for those who would participate in both sessions? :)
[20:20:05] <jpr>	just more energy from more people
[20:20:14] <jbrockmeier>	jpr: I like that idea...
[20:20:34] <jpr>	dirk is right there would be some overlap
[20:20:42] <dirk>	jbrockmeier: hmm, I'm not against some pre-cleaning
[20:20:49] <jpr>	but in terms of joint, its kind of like packaging days
[20:20:53] <dirk>	jbrockmeier: but the only job would be to "figure out which things we have to fix for 11.0"
[20:21:07] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: also easier to publicize, may draw more involvement.
[20:21:18] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: right
[20:21:30] <dirk>	jbrockmeier: this priorization is probably something where the community cannot help that much
[20:21:39] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: I want 11.0 to be as close to perfect as possible, I'm going to be spending a lot of time trying to get it reviewed... :-)
[20:21:51] <dirk>	helping with "is this kde3 bug still in kde4?" is something that can be scaled better, so I would like to try some bug squashing with that
[20:22:00] <dirk>	mrdocs: yeah, I'm lazy with that as well
[20:22:11] <dirk>	mrdocs: I guess we'll have to set a fixed date to make it happen :)
[20:22:30] <dirk>	jbrockmeier: find 200 more developers then ;)
[20:22:36] <mrdocs>	dirk: im not lazy.. just time..  just back from LGM in Poland (was excellent)
[20:23:09] <cyberorg>	jbrockmeier, if you do announce bug day, ask people to arm themselves with the latest factory live CDs if they cannot have factory installed
[20:23:13] <dirk>	jbrockmeier: joke aside, if you think that it makes sense to involve more people in tagging "must be fixed for 11.0", I'm all for it
[20:23:14] 	 * jbrockmeier looks around apartment for developers for dirk
[20:23:53] <dirk>	there are probably a lot of bugs around that should be fixed, but some of them must be fixed for release
[20:23:55] <cb400f>	jbrockmeier: 11.0 has too many things going against it.. it just has to be ok, it's a stepping stone for the world domination release (11.1)
[20:24:05] <cb400f>	;-)
[20:24:08] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: I'm happy to defer to experience here - but I think we need to be doing something to start getting outside contributors to look for bug days and contribute.
[20:24:12] <dirk>	jbrockmeier: there is this voting feature in bugzilla.novell.com but it doesn't seem to be widely used or known
[20:24:24] Join	mrdocs2 has joined this channel (n=mrdocs@ARennes-257-1-121-186.w86-210.abo.wanadoo.fr).
[20:24:49] <dirk>	unfortunately 11.1 will be late for a November 11th release
[20:24:58] <dirk>	and too early for January 11th ;)
[20:25:11] <cb400f>	:-)
[20:25:22] <jbrockmeier>	I like jpr's idea of a joint desktop bug squashing party
[20:26:14] 	 * dirk is kind of against it as it will end up in "desktop A has more bugs than desktop B" etc
[20:26:32] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: why would that happen?
[20:26:36] 	 * Beineri has no strong opinion for either
[20:26:40] <jbrockmeier>	I certainly wouldn't encourage that.
[20:27:06] <dirk>	jbrockmeier: because both are screened at the same time? might happen anyway, you're right
[20:27:14] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: besides, we can just point to twm and say it has more bugs.. ;-)
[20:27:39] <dirk>	in the end its all a kernel bug anyway.. if the kernel wouldn't work noone would complain about bugs in the desktop ;)
[20:27:42] <Beineri>	and jpr's expertice with that may help us to kick off community kde bug-screening ;-)
[20:28:07] <jbrockmeier>	jpr: still with us?
[20:28:13] <jbrockmeier>	jpr:  any dates that work best for you?
[20:28:16] <jpr>	i'd also like a common set of triage rules anyhow
[20:28:25] <jpr>	have to discuss in the gnome meeting tomorrow
[20:28:35] <jpr>	so how about a date proposed here
[20:28:42] <jbrockmeier>	jpr: good point - good way to streamline and encourage a common set of triage rules.
[20:28:43] <jpr>	and i'll take it to the gnome meeting tomorrow
[20:28:57] <jbrockmeier>	jpr: how does next Friday sound, or is that too soon?
[20:29:05] <jpr>	sounds bad
[20:29:08] <jpr>	rc1 submissions
[20:29:34] <Beineri>	well, all the time is now for rc1 :-)
[20:29:53] <jpr>	yes, but thats the final deadline for non-leaf at least
[20:30:20] <jpr>	my suggestion would be one week or two weeks from today
[20:30:33] <Beineri>	23th? I hope not :-|
[20:30:50] <jpr>	have i got the sched wrong/
[20:30:54] 	 * jpr looks
[20:31:16] 	 * Beineri hopes that submissions on Monday evening (UTC) will still be possible.
[20:31:28] <Beineri>	in two weeks is LinuxTag running </remind>
[20:31:35] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: right.
[20:32:13] <dirk>	so how about 22nd then only?
[20:32:13] <jpr>	ok, i'll take the 23rd to the meeting tomorrow
[20:32:21] <jpr>	also good with me
[20:32:31] <jpr>	may 22nd then/
[20:32:32] <Beineri>	Seli: do you have time then?
[20:33:00] <Beineri>	wstephenson will be obliged if he has no vacation :-)
[20:33:04] <Seli>	Beineri: yes, it seems
[20:33:55] <dirk>	the target was "find bugs that have to be fixed for 11.0" ?
[20:34:15] <dirk>	or "close old/no longer reproducible" reports" ?
[20:34:37] 	 * jpr thinks the second for sure
[20:34:58] <dirk>	if its just the 2nd, then why the hassle of doing it before 11.0 ?
[20:35:23] <jpr>	i didn't think it was mutually exclusive
[20:36:08] <dirk>	what about a general "vote on 11.0 blockers" bugday?
[20:36:19] <dirk>	so that we have a clearer understanding of must-fix'es as seen by the community?
[20:36:27] <dirk>	we can do the "cleanup old stuff" for both desktops after 11.0 release
[20:36:35] 	 * jpr likes that
[20:36:42] <jpr>	promoting bug voting is a good thing
[20:36:46] <Seli>	that'd be more useful IMHO, we're going to have rough edges anyway, but we at least should try to avoid those that many people would see as big problems
[20:37:09] 	 * djouallah will vote for the proxy bug
[20:37:27] <dirk>	jbrockmeier: any opinion?
[20:37:31] <jbrockmeier>	jpr, dirk - so we're agreed, May 22nd a "vote on blockers" bug day?
[20:37:45] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: I like it.
[20:37:58] <jbrockmeier>	jpr: you'll float with the GNOME meeting tomorrow?
[20:37:59] <jpr>	sounds good
[20:38:01] <jpr>	yup
[20:38:02] <jbrockmeier>	(float it)
[20:38:05] <jbrockmeier>	OK
[20:38:19] <jbrockmeier>	I'll start pulling together an announcement, then.
[20:38:42] <Beineri>	tough one ;-)...
[20:38:45] <jbrockmeier>	jpr: if it is approved in the GNOME meeting, let me know and I'll let the announcement out.
[20:38:45] <Beineri>	* announce new round of kdepim packages (bille)
[20:39:26] <dirk>	jbrockmeier: to be clear, it will be not only gnome/kde you can vote on, but also yast, base system etc, right?
[20:39:30] <Beineri>	according to log of last meetings was planned for 15th?
[20:40:00] <dirk>	I think the action item is older
[20:40:05] <dirk>	it was about the 4.0.69 kdepim packages
[20:40:12] <Beineri>	dopne or not?
[20:40:20] <dirk>	as far as I know it wasn't done
[20:40:25] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: sure
[20:40:32] <dirk>	I haven't seen it announced anywhere, at least not on opensuse-kde@ or in a blog
[20:40:45] <dirk>	.. next
[20:40:48] <Beineri>	someone kick wstephenson ;-)
[20:40:52] <Beineri>	* backport spellchecker stuff for kdepim41 (llunak)
[20:40:55] <Beineri>	that's done
[20:40:55] <dirk>	done
[20:41:00] <Beineri>	 wiki page for KDE4 testing (bille)
[20:41:07] <dirk>	thanks to Seli for delivering on time :)
[20:41:31] <dirk>	Beineri: next
[20:41:34] 	 * Beineri guesses "not done"
[20:41:36] <dirk>	afaik nothing was done
[20:41:48] <Beineri>	So, **** STATUS ****
[20:42:14] <Beineri>	seems Beta 3 will be released without the usual delay on Thursday
[20:42:50] <Beineri>	several bugs were fixed since submission deadline
[20:43:08] <dirk>	yeah, in general, please add the KDE:KDE4:STABLE:Desktop repository before reporting bugs
[20:43:14] <Beineri>	so best would be packages from build services to test, unfortunately they almost never build in there for Factory :-|
[20:43:29] <dirk>	there are a couple of annoying things in beta3 which are already fixed
[20:43:52] <dirk>	I think since last meeting we have KDE 4.0.4, qt 4.4.0 (final, plus additional bugfixes)
[20:43:59] <dirk>	new kdepim stack
[20:44:03] <Beineri>	we can only submit our packages from there more regularly to Factory so we better hit the next checkin/build/sync-out
[20:44:06] <dirk>	quite some integration fixes with compiz
[20:44:59] <Beineri>	who runs latest KDE4 packages, either from Factory or build service? :-)
[20:45:03] <dirk>	most notably kde4-kdm in beta3 is completely broken (focus issues, you can't type in the password)
[20:45:28] <Seli>	what's the current status with factory submissions? is it ok to still update 4_0_BRANCH.diff, or have fixes to be separate patches?
[20:45:30] 	 * Beineri hopes auto-login works ;-)
[20:45:36] <dirk>	Beineri: autologin works
[20:46:25] <dirk>	Seli: I'm not sure.. at the moment I would prefer branch diff updates if they are reasonable (e.g. don't add too many things that are not from us)
[20:46:26] <Beineri>	something is happening with knetworkmanager...
[20:46:30] <Beineri>	don't ask me what ;-)
[20:46:49] <dirk>	I've also done a branch diff update for KDE3
[20:47:03] <dirk>	without any testing, so people who like KDE3, please give it a try in Beta3 :)
[20:47:23] <jbrockmeier>	any chance of a KDE3 live CD for 11.0?
[20:47:48] <Beineri>	jbrockmeier: do you volunteer to make one? :-)
[20:47:56] <dirk>	jbrockmeier: officially or unofficial?
[20:48:14] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: preferably official, but either way
[20:48:19] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: I'd use it :-)
[20:48:21] <Beineri>	"how to build your own live cd", http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2008-05/msg00231.html
[20:48:27] <dirk>	the main problem with the live cd's is that somebody has to test them, they break like every 2nd day
[20:48:52] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: I thought the point of being community manager was that other people would do the work for me? ;-)
[20:49:27] <dirk>	ah, true, thats why you're a community manage and not a community architect ;)
[20:49:37] 	 * jbrockmeier goes off to read about Live CDs
[20:49:38] <Beineri>	some unofficial KDE3 and/or XFCE CD would be a nice show-case for kiwi etc.
[20:49:52] <dirk>	jbrockmeier: it should be possible to do them with suse studio or even with the opensuse buildservice 
[20:50:01] <Beineri>	Fedora released with several unoffical spins this week btw....
[20:50:28] <dirk>	internally the livecd's are autogenerated from the factory build automatically, it should be easy to reuse that magic for a xfce, e17 or a kde3 cd
[20:50:43] <Beineri>	dirk: suse what? some secret project? :-)
[20:50:47] 	 * dirk would love to have a "just the ncurses stuff, dude" cd
[20:51:43] 	 * Beineri doesn't want to see a KDE3 Live-CD from himself though ;-)... would give some "see, the KDE team doesn't trust KDE4" impression imo
[20:51:45] <mrdocs2>	heh
[20:52:14] <dirk>	yep, it kind of devalues the hard work we've put into kde4 the last few weeks
[20:52:15] <cb400f>	Beineri: that would be a good impression ;-)
[20:52:20] <jbrockmeier>	Beineri: nah - I just think that a lot of users will want the familiar desktop
[20:52:33] <toma>	dirk: how much was the branch diff for kde3?
[20:52:43] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: it's not a commentary on KDE4, it's more of a "I'm used to 3" issue.
[20:52:49] <dirk>	toma: parse error?
[20:52:55] <dirk>	toma: how many changes? how much work?
[20:53:37] <toma>	dirk: how big was the diff? if it was substential, we might want to do a release upstream
[20:54:29] <dirk>	toma: 672kb of diff in total
[20:54:47] <dirk>	320kb is kdepim3
[20:54:54] <dirk>	the rest is just some new translations, not a lot
[20:55:00] <toma>	hm, ok
[20:55:29] <dirk>	other than some kmail bugfixes and the kdesu fixes from lubos I don't know of anything significant
[20:55:32] 	 * cb400f thinks kde team did wonders with kde 4.0, but still wouldn't trust it enough to install it for his mother
[20:55:49] <dirk>	cb400f: again, mother domination is a planned feature for 11.1 ;)
[20:56:03] <cb400f>	yup
[20:56:10] Whois	cb400f is n=cb400f@opensuse/member/Cb400f (Martin Schlander)
[20:56:10] Whois	cb400f is a user on channels: #dansk-gruppen #fsf #fsfeurope #gnu #kde #kde-i18n #linuxparty.dk #openSUSE-project #opensuse-bugs #opensuse-chat #opensuse-factory #opensuse-kde #opensuse-translation #planet.opensource.dk #sslug #suse
[20:56:10] Whois	cb400f is online via irc.freenode.net (http://freenode.net/).
[20:56:10] Whois	cb400f is an identified user.
[20:56:10] Whois	End of WHOIS list.
[20:56:12] <Beineri>	anything else to say about "state"? Some problems not getting the right portion of love?
[20:56:24] <dirk>	cb400f: so how about you help zonker with the kde3 livecd? :)
[20:56:48] Join	brun0_|laptop has joined this channel (n=brun0_@virlet2.rez-gif.supelec.fr).
[20:57:01] <dirk>	Beineri: thats Q&A
[20:57:03] <cb400f>	hehe.. I don't fully trust the live cds either :-) .. people should just get the dvd for various reasons
[20:57:05] <dirk>	Beineri: next
[20:57:13] <Beineri>	so, topics from the wiki
[20:57:17] <mrdocs2>	btw kde 4.0.4 on 10.3 seems very solid now... i NX'd into my desktop over LGM and not an issue to be seen
[20:57:18] <Beineri>	cb400f wants to ask for feedback
[20:57:44] <jbrockmeier>	dirk: ...
[20:57:55] <jbrockmeier>	you might want to rephrase that, just FYI ;-)
[20:58:30] <Beineri>	cb400f: typing? :-)
[20:58:30] <cb400f>	well.. (almost) latest version of the yast oxygen theme is available for 10.3, version in factory is very outdated.. so if something hurts your eyes let me know and I'll do what I can: http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=74690 .. that's all
[20:59:39] <Beineri>	cb400f: do you have a tarball of all latest icons for download?
[20:59:53] <dirk>	cb400f: why is the factory version not updated?
[21:00:02] Quit	brun0_ has left this server (Remote closed the connection).
[21:00:17] <cb400f>	dirk: because I'm trying not to drive coolo crazy, and I was too slow for b3
[21:00:31] <cb400f>	coolo is my link to opensuse svn ;-)
[21:00:33] <dirk>	cb400f: artwork is no code, no problem with updating that ;)
[21:00:57] Nick	sven423^onAir is now known as sven423.
[21:01:36] <Beineri>	next, cb400 wants to talk about "default windeco color" and dirk about "oxygen<-> suse oxygen  / default theming"
[21:02:16] <cb400f>	http://suse.linuxin.dk/current.tar.bz2 .. that's latest.. 4-5 icons changed compared to package on kde-look
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[21:03:13] <Beineri>	who wants to start? :-)
[21:03:15] <cb400f>	yes, I think the current light blue is not very pretty
[21:03:26] <Beineri>	agree
[21:03:27] 	 * dirk agrees
[21:03:58] <Seli>	don't look at me, that's the default :)
[21:04:08] <cb400f>	Beineri made some screenshots with grey windeco which is nice and neutral and consistent with kdm/boot/grub artwork
[21:04:15] <Beineri>	that's http://ktown.kde.org/~binner/winborder/
[21:04:24] <Seli>	why is there no proposal with green? does that look bad?
[21:04:30] <Beineri>	different grays and blues...
[21:04:48] <Beineri>	cyberorg had one...
[21:05:13] <cb400f>	also matches aya pretty well (this one )
[21:05:21] <cyberorg>	
[21:05:25] <Seli>	btw, there's an option to make decorations semi-transparent with kwin, but that's indeed not for the default
[21:05:56] <cb400f>	I don't think green windeco with green wallpaper works.. otherwise I'd be pro green everything
[21:06:10] <dirk>	 is the oxygen artists preference
[21:06:35] <dirk>	but it looks a bit dark again.. almost like the "black is beautiful" look of upstream 4.0 :)
[21:06:43] <Seli>	I thought no color there was their preference
[21:06:51] <Beineri>	dirk: plural or one of them (ruphy)?
[21:06:56] <dirk>	Beineri: ruphy
[21:07:19] Join	eeanm has joined this channel (n=ian@amarok/developer/eean).
[21:07:24] <eeanm>	I always get:
[21:07:28] <eeanm>	Unfortunately the installation has failed, see the log file at /var/log/YaST2/y2log for more information. Failure stage was: unknown
[21:07:37] <dirk>	eeanm: $topic. we're in a meeting. later
[21:07:45] <eeanm>	ah sorry :)
[21:07:59] <dirk>	np
[21:08:24] <dirk>	I like the cyberorg green but the problem of lacking contrast with the wallpaper is indeed some issue I think
[21:08:35] <dirk>	how do we move forward? voting? rolling a dice? :)
[21:08:54] <Beineri>	from the greys I would prefer  - which is the same color as for active window in the task manage :-)
[21:09:22] <cyberorg>	usually people have many window open, so it is against other windows not against the wallpaper most of the time
[21:10:19] <dirk>	Beineri: 838583 looks a bit like the "this application is dead" shade of grey of kwin/composite
[21:10:20] <Beineri>	from the blues  - better than the 'default' bright one, and by chance the same as gnome windeco has
[21:10:54] <Beineri>	(though that has [more] gradients in the deco)
[21:11:52] <Beineri>	cyberorg: I'm all for including an "all green" color scheme as option, can you send the file? :-)
[21:12:06] <Seli>	Beineri: is that the same blue like in the selections?
[21:12:08] <cyberorg>	Beineri, what file do you need?
[21:13:26] <dirk>	Seli: are you asking because you think its a bad idea that it is the same color like selections?
[21:13:42] <Seli>	dirk: I think I'd actually like it that way
[21:13:54] <Seli>	the active window is kind of selected too
[21:14:10] <Beineri>	cyberorg: something in ~/.kde4/share/apps/kthememanager/theme/ :-)
[21:14:41] <Seli>	I find the grey decorations a bit dull
[21:15:15] <dirk>	okay, who takes the AI of window deco color? Beineri ?
[21:15:50] <Beineri>	dirk: and how shall I decide? :-)
[21:16:03] <dirk>	I have a dice :)
[21:16:11] 	 * Beineri says #6a99d5 then
[21:16:27] <cb400f>	hrmpf
[21:17:00] 	 * cb400f thinks we should let ruphy decide ;-)
[21:17:09] <Beineri>	Seli: that was also Jimmac's comment, he would like to see grey but know that people would then complain about lacking colors on the desktop
[21:17:46] <dirk>	cb400f: so you prefer 52555a?
[21:17:57] <cb400f>	with the dark grey it's more colourful than default oxygen windeco
[21:18:12] <cb400f>	and plenty of colour on wallpaper
[21:18:32] <cb400f>	I like all the grey.. tend to prefer the dark one, yes
[21:18:48] <Beineri>	to make it short, does anyone NOT think that #6a99d5 is a better color than the current one? :-)
[21:19:36] <cb400f>	only slightly
[21:19:39] <Beineri>	3.... 2.... 1... so we have an improvement :-)
[21:20:02] <Beineri>	cb400f: argh, don't confuse ;-)...
[21:20:09] <Beineri>	dirk: what's up with icons etc.?
[21:20:44] <dirk>	I've talked with one of the oxygen guys this week and he doesn't really like that we have a mixture of crystal and oxygen icons on the default desktop
[21:20:52] <dirk>	which I kind of agree that it is a bug, and that we should fix it
[21:21:07] <Beineri>	and naming
[21:21:09] <dirk>	there was another comment though (kind of expected it): we patched oxygen to paint coloring differently
[21:21:25] <dirk>	so he expected us to either revert that or change the name of the window deco
[21:21:44] <dirk>	I suggested something like suse-oxygen or high-contrast-oxygen or tinted-oxygen and he said that would be okay
[21:21:56] <dirk>	I said that I would bring it up here for comments
[21:22:12] <dirk>	technically it shouldn't be difficult to rename the decoration.. it can only introduce some subtle bugs somewhere ;(
[21:22:19] <Seli>	but we're past i18n freeze
[21:22:23] <Beineri>	why does it matter? where else than in the config dialog can you see the window deco name?
[21:22:47] <Seli>	otherwise it's just the Ozone windeco, basically, you can change only the few visible strings (one or two IIRC)
[21:23:25] <dirk>	Beineri: the main point would be that people could change the window deco to the "original" oxygen if they want to
[21:23:26] <Beineri>	Seli: afaik Ozone is simply Oxygen with that border option added and enabled by default?
[21:23:34] <dirk>	as far as I understood it is not possible at the moment
[21:23:59] <Seli>	Beineri: yes, but not enabled by default (yet, I'll see before 4.1 freeze)
[21:24:14] <cyberorg>	Beineri, http://cyberorg.kicks-ass.org/~cyberorg/GeekoGreen.colors
[21:24:21] <Beineri>	dirk: they can just uncheck "[ ] Blend titlebar with window colors?"
[21:24:26] <Seli>	dirk: it is possible to change to original oxygen by turning off the option
[21:24:58] <dirk>	ah, okay
[21:25:00] <Beineri>	do we really have to discuss whether you can toggle that detail via a combo-box or a check-box? :-)
[21:25:07] <cyberorg>	Beineri, btw, found it in .kde4/share/apps/color-schemes/
[21:25:18] <dirk>	Seli: okay, consider it solved then, I guess
[21:25:29] <Seli>	dirk: and the rename?
[21:25:41] 	 * dirk is confused
[21:26:01] <cb400f>	didn't the oxygen artists notice what happened to firefox in debian and elsewhere? ;-)
[21:26:03] <dirk>	we don't have ozone yet (thats kde 4.1 stuff from seli?)?
[21:26:30] <Seli>	we don't, but that's basically oxygen with the option and s/i18n("Oxygen")/i18n("Ozone")/
[21:26:58] <Seli>	because they don't want the option on something named oxygen
[21:26:59] <dirk>	I see
[21:27:10] <dirk>	yeah, I got that message as well
[21:27:24] <dirk>	so if we want to be nice community participants, I guess we have to rename it to Ozone then
[21:27:25] <Seli>	but since that was past our i18n freeze for 11.0, I ignored this for suse and did it just upstream
[21:27:55] <dirk>	i18n freeze is a tough topic, beineri just found out that we forgot quite some packages from i18n ;(
[21:28:06] 	 * dirk looks at coolo
[21:28:30] <dirk>	Seli: there is not a whole lot that needs to be translated for "Ozone", right?
[21:28:30] 	 * Beineri thinks people will be happy to have the trashcan on their desktops being translated ;-)
[21:28:45] <dirk>	Beineri: as long as it doesn't duplicate itself then anymore :)
[21:28:52] <cb400f>	we just got 100+ strings changed/added for packagekit..
[21:29:09] <dirk>	gnome-packagekit.pot ? I've seen that today
[21:29:13] <Seli>	dirk: i18n("Ozone"), that should be it
[21:29:19] <cb400f>	.. so a string or two in kde desktop files or something won't hurt
[21:29:25] <Seli>	dirk: but there doesn't seem to be many translations of that upstream yet
[21:29:40] <cb400f>	the strings in question prolly won't even need translation in most languagues
[21:29:47] <dirk>	yep
[21:30:07] <Seli>	that's right, who gives a damn about the decoration name after all :)
[21:30:08] <Beineri>	cb400f: don't say that - people even translate "User Friendly" ;-)
[21:30:52] <Beineri>	dirk: do you have a list of the non-oxygen icons?
[21:31:06] <dirk>	Beineri: yes.. not right now though
[21:31:13] <dirk>	on the old workstation..
[21:31:36] <Seli>	AI: oxygen->ozone (Seli)
[21:31:37] <dirk>	another concern was the crystal icons of kde4-opensuse-updater
[21:31:40] <Beineri>	dirk: so you have an AI ;-)... and to figure out (maybe with cb400?) which one to take instead
[21:31:53] <dirk>	and knetworkmanager, and kpowersave
[21:32:13] <dirk>	I don't know how to teach knetworkmanager3 to use beautiful oxygen icons when run under kde4 ;(
[21:32:48] <Beineri>	that's about system tray icons or icons in context menus/dialogs?
[21:32:55] <dirk>	it really sucks that we start the whole kde3 stack under kde4 just for a 22x22 networkmanager icon in the systray
[21:33:16] <dirk>	Beineri: systray icon mostly
[21:33:24] 	 * Beineri wouldn't care about context menus/dialogs
[21:33:39] <Beineri>	mhm, discuss with Seli?
[21:33:51] <dirk>	AI: dirk: replace the crystal icons on the default desktop with oxygen ones
[21:34:08] <Beineri>	dirk: what with "blurry icons"?
[21:34:33] <dirk>	Beineri: good point!
[21:34:56] <Beineri>	dirk: sure, it's your point ;-)
[21:35:02] <dirk>	another thing mentioned by ruphy was, because we patch the panel size to a custom heigh (40?), it doesn't select one of the png's of the icons in the right size
[21:35:17] <dirk>	because there are only icons available for "small" or "normal" size
[21:35:32] <dirk>	and svg icons are not taken because of bug 361781
[21:35:35] <bugbot>	openSUSE bug 361781 in openSUSE 11.0 (KDE4 Workspace) "Fix QSvgRenderer to work better, enabling kiconloader to choose svgs" [Minor,Needinfo] https://bugzilla.novell.com/361781
[21:36:06] Quit	erikja has left this server ("Leaving").
[21:36:08] <dirk>	the options are: rescale the svgs to our custon png size and patch the theme file to prefer them (ugh)
[21:36:32] <dirk>	b) prefer svg's over pngs and hope for them to be rendered properly (ugh)
[21:36:38] <Beineri>	or choose another panel size?
[21:36:44] <dirk>	or c) choose a different panel size that doesn't rescale the icons
[21:37:03] 	 * dirk would heavily vote for "small" panel size to be the default
[21:37:10] <Beineri>	KDE/SUSE had 40 pixels for quite some time as default iirc, and panels etc. are getting bigger...
[21:37:41] <Beineri>	dirk: that's how many pixels?
[21:37:45] <Beineri>	32?
[21:38:18] <Beineri>	seem so
[21:38:52] <dirk>	Beineri: so you're voting for "normal" then (which is 50?)
[21:39:03] <Beineri>	48
[21:39:36] <dirk>	hmm, ideally I'd pick "normal" for hires displays and small for standard :)
[21:39:40] <Beineri>	let me check how the default plasmoids render for 32 ;-)
[21:39:44] <cb400f>	what's the threshold for two rows of systray icons?
[21:39:56] <Beineri>	dirk: actually I think our kde3 had some patch to do that
[21:40:35] <dirk>	Beineri: I'm not sure, I don't think we ever shipped with such a patch though
[21:40:36] <Beineri>	from startkde.theme:
[21:40:40] <Beineri>	  [ $Y -gt 600 ] && ICONSIZE=25
[21:40:43] <Beineri>	  [ $Y -gt 1024 ] && ICONSIZE=32
[21:40:51] <Beineri>	otherwise 16
[21:41:39] 	 * dirk didn't know that :)
[21:41:54] <dirk>	if we s,1024,1050, I'm happy :)
[21:42:08] <Beineri>	just looking if it was for the start menu entry icons only...
[21:43:01] <dirk>	okay, silence.. 
[21:43:10] <dirk>	AI: dirk: panel size / icon size issue
[21:43:12] <dirk>	next..
[21:43:13] <Beineri>	uhm, you mean 48 for >=1050? and 32 below?
[21:43:36] <dirk>	Beineri: well, out of personal preference I like the small panel size, yes. but I can undersatnd that it might not be a good default
[21:44:14] <Beineri>	dirk: anything more from you about theming?
[21:44:21] <dirk>	no
[21:44:34] <Beineri>	last but not least
[21:44:37] <Beineri>	* misc/QA
[21:45:48] <Beineri>	someone not asleep yet?
[21:45:56] 	 * dirk is out of topics..
[21:46:10] <dirk>	I think everyone enjoys a beer outside, it has been a quiet meeting today
[21:46:31] <mrdocs>	dirk: can we set next week for a target to do the wiki stuff ?
[21:46:34] 	 * dirk actually goes inside now since it is getting chilly
[21:46:39] <toma>	to who can i say hi at linuxtag?
[21:46:43] <Beineri>	dirk: we will do next meeting in a beergarden with wifi ;-)
[21:46:47] <cb400f>	does ~may 25 still stand as deadline for translating 4.1 pim upstream?
[21:46:55] <mrdocs>	sounds fine :)
[21:47:25] <Beineri>	toma: me, wstephenson, jbrockmeier, likely dirk, coolo, ...
[21:47:51] <toma>	great
[21:47:53] <dirk>	cb400f: sort of, yes
[21:48:22] 	 * dirk still needs to book a place to stay though
[21:48:41] <dirk>	everything I found so far has been freaking expensive
[21:48:52] <dirk>	Beineri: next meeting?
[21:49:06] <Beineri>	dirk: or your standard is too high ;-)
[21:49:20] 	 * toma randomly picked a hotel with a reasonable price
[21:49:26] <Beineri>	dirk: not sure, in two weeks it's first day of LinuxTag...
[21:50:18] <Beineri>	but then it's only me missing? :-)
[21:50:29] <Beineri>	(and zonker)
[21:50:58] <Beineri>	ok, so 28th, 18 UTC
[21:51:18] <Beineri>	and make it Seli's turn then ;-)
[21:51:21] <dirk>	hehe
[21:51:23] 	 * dirk is off
[21:51:25] <dirk>	see ya
[21:51:42] <Beineri>	bye