KDE/Meetings/2008 01 30-transcript

*** Beineri sets the channel topic to "Welcome to the openSUSE KDE Community Meeting". * dirk is here <dirk> bille is probably still homesick <Beineri> seems everyone is present (except Bille which has an excuse)... <Beineri> who even * Beineri tries to remember the agend he sent :-) <dirk> its on the wiki <Beineri> * old action items / status report <Beineri> * Build Service repositories organization <Beineri> * Bugzilla categories restructuring <Beineri> * KDE 4.x for openSUSE 11.0 <Beineri> dirk: our standard one? :-) <dirk> Beineri: no I just updated it :) <dirk> anyway.. <Beineri> anything else important? add QA <dirk> go ahead <dirk> * fosdem 2008 talk topic perhaps <Beineri> let's start with the fun part, old action items <Beineri> * schedule possible date for next packaging day (dirk) <dirk> no progress due to vacation <dirk> still two weeks before beta1 <dirk> is the planned date <dirk> announcement to be done <Beineri> * improve kde building guide (bille) * Beineri hasn't seen changes, afaik he wanted to post something to dirk for review? <Beineri> so we will keep that and Bille busy ;-) <Beineri> * ask about bug day and figure out the week day (beineri) * Beineri did ask on the mailing list but no single reply to the question if and when best :-( <cgoncalves> Beineri: any weekend I would say <dirk> forgot to reply, but any weekend besides the next one (karneval) I' <dirk> d say <Beineri> dirk: carnival? will you be a pirate? :-) <dirk> Beineri: no, I'm not such a junkie, but others might be :) <Beineri> so when to do it best? after beta1? <Beineri> when we now what our default desktop will be :-) <Beineri> s/now/know/ <dirk> sounds good, then we're supposed to fix bugs anyway :) <Beineri> that's still quite some time/meetings away <cgoncalves> 19-20 April then? <Beineri> we'll keep that date in mind <Beineri> so rename AI to announce without requesting further feedback ;-) <dirk> agreed <Beineri> * script for watching homes for kde apps (dirk) <dirk> status: mls wanted to add support for that in the scheduler, which he didn't do so far due to other burning issues <dirk> and he said that if I osc co /, he's going to block me :) <Beineri> so keep it open <Beineri> * meeting gekker/michl/coolo (beineri) <Beineri> meeting in that constellation didn't happen but we had many discussions and I think a consensus now what do (later status ;-) <Beineri> that was about KDE 4 or KDE 3 on 11.0 btw <Beineri> let's look at the archive ;-) <Beineri> * Do more talks/workshops at Linux events (all) <Beineri> later agend point about FOSDEM :-) <Beineri> * KDE Relicensing effort: An effort is underway to make all of KDE [L]GPL2+ <Beineri> the other big news of course in the last week was that Qt3 and Qt4 are now/will be also available under GPL3 <Beineri> (yeah, and that thing with Nokia ;-) <Beineri> dirk: relicensing is progressing well afaik? and we're tracking all "problematic" GPLv2 files? <Beineri> any question about this topic? <Beineri> * KDE frontend to giver underway (tpatzig) <cgoncalves> tpatzig: btw, congrats! ;-) <Beineri> if he doesn't want to say anything, 0.1 release of kepas is out and 0.2 underway <Beineri> * qtjambi still having packaging difficulties (duncanmv) <Beineri> does anyone know if Duncan is still interested/working on that? * Beineri will ask him <dirk> Beineri: relicensing: progress is stopping at the moment, but now that novell legal is looking at it, I have to push progress again <dirk> Beineri: qtjambi: I think not <Beineri> so, status reports <Beineri> one of the reasons we have this meeting so long after the last one is that almost half of the team (dirk and Bille) were at the KDE 4.0 Release Event in SF * Beineri didn't see any/much blogs of those both about it ;-)... seems nothing interesting happened? <Beineri> dirk: that's your keyword :-) <dirk> Beineri: I know <dirk> Beineri: well, the most interesting things are already known <dirk> a) the Qt GPL3 announcement <dirk> b) the release party (see on youtube) <dirk> c) various BoFs, like the konstruct, distro BoF <dirk> there were a lot of discussions sideways, i think the overall summary is that <dirk> the feedback about 4.0 is mildly positive (people realize it is not user featurecomplete) <dirk> though there are some ramblings about the kickoff menu, plasma being less than feature-ful etc <dirk> I was positively surprised however how many people showed up at an north america event <Beineri> kickoff is admitted also less-featureful in kde 4.0 than our KDE3 version :-| <dirk> and maybe I converted some of them to openSUSE :-) * Beineri declares dirk to be the new openSUSE Evangelist :-) <dirk> I think the most interesting to talk about would be the results of the knetwormanager usability BoF and the distro bof <dirk> where I only participated for 5 minutes at the former <cgoncalves> Beineri: openSUSE Evangelist != openSUSE Chief Evangelist :-P <cb400f> also it's an important point that openSUSE was in the house <cb400f> .. albeit trivial <Beineri> notes from the distro bof: http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-release-team&m=120078652611862&w=2 <Beineri> dirk: there have been also discussion/meeting of the release team and consensus on a kde 4.1 schedule? <dirk> Beineri: no, I didn't talk to myself ;) <Beineri> see http://techbase.kde.org/index.php?title=Schedules/KDE4/4.1_Release_Schedule <dirk> Beineri: there was noone else around afaik * cgoncalves doesn't like at all the new knetworkmanager version - got 3 systray icons, and it's harder to use than v 0.2 <dirk> cgoncalves: how many icons do you want? <Beineri> ok, seems that was only a coincidence to happen around the same time :-) <cgoncalves> dirk: just one?! <cgoncalves> dirk: I got 3 icons! that's way too much! <dirk> Beineri: well, the basic story is that people tried to make up a schedule so that aaron could present it in the release keynote slides <dirk> Beineri: while he realized that the discussion is not really finished, so he only briefly mentioned it, so the whole topic could have been discussed further <rabauke> the new knetworkmngr is in factory? <dirk> Beineri: it seems in the distro bof mdr and ubuntu indicated that they're going to ship kde 4.1 in the fall release, so we have to release somewhen around end of august <dirk> rabauke: yes <rabauke> ok <dirk> cgoncalves: well, the new feature of nm 0.7 is that you configure each device seperately <dirk> rabauke: its not too working at the moment though <dirk> cgoncalves: so you get one icon per device <dirk> I don't know why there is +1 one though (where that one seems less than useful), I think we can remove that <cgoncalves> dirk: that simply sucks! I don't want my systray full of nm icons ;-/ <dirk> I think the basic problem of knm at the moment is that it tries to cram all the features into one popup menu * Beineri welcomes Bille <cgoncalves> dirk: plus, configuring a wireless network connection is painfull <rabauke> and that the icons do not look familiar <Bille> hi folks <Bille> talking about the knm UI redesign? <rabauke> nobody I know recognised the cable-plug <dirk> cgoncalves: I share your concern, it might be a good idea to come up with a better idea <cgoncalves> Bille: yeah! I'm bashing it! <dirk> cgoncalves, Bille: no <dirk> Bille: he is bashing the current one icon per device thing <dirk> I did not report about the knm ui review bof because I don't know what to report <Bille> cgoncalves: at the KDE launch event i took part in a usability meeting (with celeste) about KNM. we have a new plan. <dirk> you could say something about that <rabauke> a plsmoid could be a solution, since it can take more space than a systray icon, if needed and have even more if the user wants it on the desktop. <Bille> to summarise in two words: connection based <Bille> hm is that not enough? <Beineri> better keep that discussion for later/some other time... <Beineri> the interesting thing to note about above KDE 4.1 schedule is that Beta 1 will be around the time the openSUSE 11.0 release candidate is due :-| <Bille> ok. currently we show all the devices and all the wifi in range. NM 0.7 adds support for more device types so this does not scale. instead the popup menu will only show the configured connections AND a 'create new connection' option <Beineri> to the presence, today KDE 4.0.1 got tagged and we will have it next week within openSUSE 11.0 Alpha 2 <Beineri> and in earlier mentioned discussion we decided to ship KDE 4.0.1 as default desktop on Alpha 2 and Alpha 3 <cb400f> any official decision about intermittant plasma before 4.1? <Beineri> where default means it will be on the one CD and in the desktop selection screen of the DVD (which will also still have a KDE 3.5 desktop shell) <dirk> cb400f: there is a plasma meeting next weekend (iirc) about that topc <cb400f> cool <Beineri> 9th <dirk> Beineri: well, not for alpha2 <dirk> for alpha2 the one cd media will likely be kde 3.5 still, due to extremely tight timing issue <Beineri> dirk: is that not next? :-) <Beineri> dirk: what's the problem with the cd? <dirk> (we're at 702MB now, and adding KDE4 to the game will likely not make it smaller) <dirk> Beineri: freaking shitload of new dependencies and size increase <Beineri> I know we have do some stuff (like splitten language packages) still :-)... <dirk> and if I understand the distro meeting discussion, they want to increase all binarie sizes due to increased debug <dirk> aka not splitting out debuginfo packages anymore <Beineri> but Coolo said that he would be for the Alphas also fine with releasing a CD which is over its size * Beineri didn't read it (that way) btw <Beineri> so Alpha 2 is basically "gain experience" with the problems that this raises <dirk> Beineri: well, the notes said that they don't want to strip out symtab <Beineri> and Alpha 3 / Beta 1 will be "let's see how much of that we can fix" :-) <dirk> which is ~ 30% of debuginfo size <dirk> yep, alpha2 is to get feedback, we'll evaluate for beta1 <rabauke> so opensuse 11 will have 4.0 as default and a bit from 3.5 and 4.1? <Beineri> that's the latest to pull-back - but not without getting hurt ;-| <Beineri> rabauke: application from 3.5 for sure <dirk> rabauke: we haven't decided yet on 4.0 vs 4.1, but the targetted option is to go with a stabilized beta of 4.1 if plasma is behaving <Beineri> we should mention http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/KDE_on_openSUSE11.0 which has also an app matrix :-) <dirk> rabauke: but most apps will be from 3.5 as the major ones are not ported * Beineri gives everyone some time to scim over that and raises questions <Beineri> (yeah, it's "skim" - surprising that there are English words with a 'k' :-) <cgoncalves> heh <rabauke> ok, I don't think that it would make sense to ship any version of 4.0.x. because those that want something complete and stable would prefer 3.5 and those that want something a bit newer and a bit less stable and feature complete would want 4.1. 4.0 is of no use to anyone IMHO. * cgoncalves wonders what's the future holds for Kaffeine <Beineri> from 4.1 we will backport single patches/features (like currently taskbar features in the 4.0 packages) <dirk> rabauke: there are smaller things being added to 4.0 branch though <qiliang> yeap, there is no skim/kde4, and it seems skim/kde3 not supports qt4/kde4 apps <dirk> rabauke: I still think it is usefull especially if plasma comes in shape a bit more (re interim plasma release) <Beineri> and hope that some better Plasma will get released in-between so we don't have to consider to backport some 4.1 Devel Plasma :-| <dirk> yeah, having to support a 4.1 rough beta will be a pita <dirk> we do have quite a lot of features still to do for that plan for 11.0 <cb400f> I guess releasing 4.1 as official update is out of the question? <Beineri> cgoncalves: upstream/4.1 will have Dragon player. A Kaffeine port doesn't exist yet afaik. <cgoncalves> I rather prefer Kaffeine over Dragon player though <rabauke> kaffeine is no good as plugin anyway <Beineri> cgoncalves: Dragon player is xine only though <Beineri> while kaffeine through Gstreamer offers legal use of codecs <yaloki> xine produces much better quality though <fm_> does the dragon player have dvb-t support? * cgoncalves needs someone to remember him to file a bug as Kaffeine can't open videos with subtitles in it any more ;-( <dirk> cb400f: it is an option if packaging doesn't get into the way (e.g. major restructuring) <rabauke> why not put a "install mp3 codec" plasmoid on the desktop and not have to worry bout gestreamer etc? <yaloki> cgoncalves: seen a fix in xine 1.10 about that <Beineri> rabauke: and I don't think that KDE 4.0 is of no use :-)... if you take the listed blockers aside I think that most people will be happy without even if it maybe offers only 90% of the old features (on the other side some new) <benJIman> rabauke: Better solution than that, but it's offtopic. <yaloki> rabauke: because it's dangerous from a software patent POV ? <dirk> rabauke: because it is a legal danger for novell unfortunately <dirk> there might or might not be a solution to the mp3 problem for any future distro <rabauke> but the community repos in yast are not? <dirk> rabauke: well, they can be "fixed" at any time <dirk> a install button on a CD is hardly changeable after the CD was released :) <cb400f> Beineri: dragon player won't use phonon? <dirk> anyway, that shouldn't be a community concern <rabauke> not if it only a link <dirk> cb400f: i think it uses phonon actually <yaloki> rabauke: the risk to go through community repos that, in turn, contain the codecs has been considered an acceptable risk by novell's legal dept <Beineri> cb400f: if phonon for video? <Beineri> is <yaloki> rabauke: yes a link is risky enough <dirk> Beineri: also for video, yes. though only bare support atm <yaloki> rabauke: seems like you don't know the infamous heise case ;) <rabauke> ok, ok. <Beineri> to sum up, please try Alpha 2 and/or use the KDE:KDE4 packages and report problems to upstream and distro-stuff to us :-) <Beineri> (or whatever the repo(s) will be called :-) <Beineri> then, to look into the future... <Beineri> the week of 11th we will have again a Novell Hack Week * Beineri knows a few people were asked to join but I think no KDE related activities <Beineri> external people <Beineri> dunno if the idea.opensuse.org will be revived and if you could submit your ideas there <dirk> Beineri: well, we can still invite people who are interested in kde related activities, right? <Beineri> dirk: dunno, are you willing to work together with someone on something? <dirk> for specific values of "something", yes :) <Beineri> anyway expect usual (kde) development to slow down that week :-) <Beineri> our next meeting in 2 weeks would be also in that week btw - any problem with that? <rabauke> are there any plans to have ideas about the message-list-view in kmail? <dirk> Beineri: not with me <Bille> rabauke: ? <Beineri> dirk: you don't think they will serve alcohol in the evening (again) ;-)? <dirk> Beineri: no, thats what I heard (no food/other poison) <rabauke> Bille: were there any usability studies about the message-list view compared to other mailers? <Bille> rabauke: not that i know of <Beineri> rabauke: later ;-) <rabauke> ok <dirk> so.. <dirk> AI: anyone who wants to work on KDE related topics during hackweek, mail opensuse-kde <Beineri> the only other thing I can think of ahead is upcoming FOSDEM on 23th and 24th - better book travel/accomodiation early! <Beineri> there will be KDE-related talks (later agenda :-) and several people there incl. dirk, Bille, tpazig, dgollub, ... <Beineri> coolo for the first time (if you count him as KDE-related ;-) <dirk> its coolo's birthday btw :) <Beineri> adrian, klaas, duncan and of course benjiman(!) <Beineri> next: * Build Service repositories organization <benJIman> Beineri: Apparently I need to decide what to talk on too. <cgoncalves> Beineri: with a nice topic: "benjiman talk" heh <Beineri> benJIman: software portal? * Beineri somehow suspects yaloki to be also present ;-) <benJIman> Beineri: Only have half an hour, will probably just do YMP I suppose. <benJIman> And SWP is a political issue a bit. <dirk> Beineri: next topic or want to slip in fosdem 08 talk topic? <Beineri> dirk: choose if you want to talk about repositories or fosdem :-) <dirk> Beineri: fosdem talk <dirk> right now the proposal I added today (because martin asked me to enter something now) is to talk both a bit developer centric, user centric and a bit with opensuse background <dirk> so its a mixture of a) kde 4.0 new architecture bits (devel) b) new stuff (user) and c) 11.0 plans / one CD media (user + interested community) <dirk> I however tend to say that this is too much for 45 minutes, so I need suggestion on what to focus on (or another topic?) * dirk waits for the silence to stop :) <Beineri> c) with a bit how b) can make use of it? <dirk> what would be most interesting to you? <Beineri> a) will be likely covered enough in the KDE developer room <Beineri> dirk: plans for openSUSE 11.1, if you could talk about that ;-) <dirk> Beineri: yeah, well its only next month, so I'm not sure what we can say for sure <Bille> dirk: how many slots do we actually have? <dirk> but okay, I get the message from the silence that I should focus on opensuse integration for user <dirk> Bille: one, the unthankful "in the morning after evening party" slot <Beineri> Bille: one, and the talk of dgollub and tpazig about zeroconf will include also some kde bits (eg kepas, some other secret plasmoid)... * Beineri notes that everytime he writes tpazig he means tpatzig :-) <dirk> .. if not overwritten by the two other higher priotized talks <Beineri> yeah, suddenly everyone seems to hold an own talk :-) <Bille> dirk: i would not do a) - all the developers and potential developers know about 4.0 new arch already <Bille> even the press complained that aaron's keynote discussed solid/phonon/oxygen enough already <Beineri> AI: dirk and Bille, discuss what you both will present :-) <dirk> agreed, bille we should talk before friday <dirk> AI and move on * cb400f thinks lugradio still need to see aarons keynote <dirk> * build service restructuring <dirk> latest proposal: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-01/msg00077.html <Beineri> http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-01/msg00074.html is the start of the latest thread <Bille> cb400f: aaron and me are doing a response interview with lugradio <Bille> cb400f: we spoke to them last week and basically they said "we're shameless pricks, we'll say what we like, but come on next week and respond" <Beineri> Bille: listened to the rest of lugradio first ;-| <Bille> that way they create a controversy and get more listeners. <Beineri> dirk: do we have to rename KDE:KDE4 to KDE:KDE4:DESKTOP? <dirk> Beineri: well, not necessarily.. <dirk> Beineri: but do you find it obvious then that KDE:KDE4 and KDE:KDE4:UNSTABLE can not be combined? <dirk> e.g. also that you can not mix KDE:KDE4:APPS with KDE:KDE4:UNSTABLE or KDE:KDE4 with KDE:KDE4:UNSTABLE:APPS? <rabauke> that's not obvious to me <Beineri> to make it clear what you can combine you have to insert STABLE: everywhere again <dirk> people might add KDE:KDE4 and KDE:KDE4:UNSTABLE:APPS to get the latest ktorrent beta, but they will crash as they need a newer kdelibs <rabauke> UNSTABLE is trunk and STABLE branch? <dirk> yes <Beineri> yes <dirk> it will be moving to 4.1 branch and 4.2 in the future etc <tpatzig> cgoncalves: thx. sorry am a little late ;) <rabauke> hm, I do not see how you can make users aware of unstable not just meaning unstable but compatible to stable. <dirk> rabauke: .._in_compatible <rabauke> I meant that <Beineri> it's a bit pity that we cannot have something like KDE-DEFAULT anymore as we cannot reference something from :APPS anymore in the build service patterns/automatically generated .ymps <cgoncalves> dirk: then people tend to better understand the meaning of "trunk" and "branch" instead (eg: "stable? howcome? trunk + fixes?") <dirk> cgoncalves: you're saying that non-developers tend to understand that "trunk" is less stable than "branch" ? <rabauke> one could call ist brnach and trunk instead of stable and unstable <dirk> one could call it released and devel instead of stable and unstable <dirk> but devel has the 2nd connottation that it might mean "you need that for building things" <dirk> which is not true <dirk> Beineri: we can, we build APPS against :DESKTOP, and the pattern would be in APPS then <rabauke> or have KDE:UNSTABLE:KDE4 and KDE:STABLE:KDE4, if the user sees the same folders in each of these it seems obvious that those are two groups <dirk> Beineri: we could only have KDE-BASIC then in the desktop pattern <cgoncalves> dirk: seeing in a newbie point of view nop, but "KDE:KDE4:trunk" and "KDE:KDE4:branch" would be better to disting them <Beineri> dirk: ah, right. I somehow read your a) suggestion <rabauke> cgoncalves: but only for people that know the meaning of those <Beineri> so one more reason for b) <qiliang> is there any wiki page for kde4 apps like kde/packaging/cookbook? thx <cgoncalves> rabauke: not quite but yeah... though I thing people will come with issues like "hey! I can't install an unstable Kapp, having a stable KDE4 repo either" <rabauke> Me too <Beineri> qiliang: search for "packaging" on opensuse.org/KDE? :-) <dirk> qiliang: http://en.opensuse.org/Packaging/SUSE_Macros/KDE4_Macros <dirk> qiliang: and in theory on http://en.opensuse.org/SUSE_Package_Conventions/Specific_Packages <qiliang> dirk: thx, got it. and is there any difference for packaging kde4 stable and unstable? * Beineri votes to finally make a decision (topic is around since October?) and STABLE / UNSTABLE <dirk> but kde4.x is not mentioned there yet <dirk> qiliang: not really at the moment <qiliang> dirk: thx <rabauke> so haviing KDE:STABLE:KDE4 and KDE:UNSTABLE:KDE4 is not an option? <dirk> Beineri: so you vote against your objection having to rename KDE:KDE4 to KDE:KDE4:STABLE ? <dirk> rabauke: it is an option, but is it different to KDE:KDE4:STABLE/UNSTABLE? <dirk> well, it is, but how in your opinion? <rabauke> yes, because stable/unstable are not in the same subdir <Beineri> dirk: that was just an idea how to not break user repositories - but maybe better break before they wonders that APPS don't get updated anymore ;-) <dirk> rabauke: good point <dirk> but we could use KDE:KDE40 and KDE:KDE41 for it as well (together with :APPS :COMMUNITY as suffixes) <Beineri> hu? <Beineri> how would user know that KDE41 is unstable? <Beineri> wouldn't he always choose the "newer must be better"? <dirk> possible, yes <cb400f> and change url whenever there's big release? <cb400f> (42) <Beineri> die every 6 months? :-| <dirk> Beineri: we could do KDE:KDE40 and KDE:UNSTABLE, with the option of copying unstable to KDE:KDE41 and so on <Beineri> copying? <dirk> well, by the time 4.2 is starting * Beineri votes for KDE:KDE4:STABLE:DESKTOP (and the other stuff corresponding) <dirk> I would choose for KDE:STABLE:KDE4:DESKTOP <dirk> we need the KDE:KDE4:APPS for the "backports against distro KDE" repository <Beineri> why that? <dirk> hmm, true, its not on the same level <dirk> okay, withdraw my suggestion <dirk> KDE:KDE4:STABLE:DESKTOP, APPS and COMMUNITY <Beineri> do you want to have KDE3/KDE4 on the same level or STABLE/UNSTABLE of KDE4? <dirk> and KDE:KDE4:APPS, COMMUNITY <dirk> and KDE:KDE4:UNSTABLE:DESKTOP, APPS and COMMUNITY <dirk> Beineri: no, good point <Beineri> that must be no "or" in my question btw <dirk> got it <dirk> Beineri: okay, so agree with that latest proposal above? <dirk> anyone else? :) * Beineri ponders if he is now confused or not :-) <mrdocs_> lo * cgoncalves is <Beineri> dirk: KDE:KDE4:BACKPORT:APPS, COMMUNITY ? * mrdocs_ thinks someone will get confused no matter what <dirk> Beineri: it means though, that KDE:KDE4:STABLE:APPS will be building against KDE:KDE4:STABLE:DESKTOP, so you have to add both repos to yast <dirk> so no improvement over the platform/desktop modular split <Beineri> yeah, users will have to enter two repositories (like for KDE3) if they don't use a one-click from :APPS <dirk> Beineri: any reason for KDE4 in the KDE:KDE4:BACKPORT:APPS ? we could call it KDE:BACKPORT:APPS, no? <Beineri> dirk: what about KDE:/Backports (as not-hierarchy)? <Beineri> do you want to merge KDE:Backports into KDE:BACKPORT:APPS , or leave it untouched? <cgoncalves> my suggestion: KDE:KDE4:STABLE:DESKTOP, APPS, COMMUNITY && KDE:KDE4:UNSTABLE:DESKTOP, APPS, COMMUNITY - though I think users will get confused about what APP has that DESKTOP doesn't has (mv APPS EXTRA ?) <rabauke> I would guess APPs are things like digikam <Beineri> cgoncalves: didn't we have that suggestion already? :-) <else_where> cgoncalves: i'm one of those users... ;) What does APPS have that DESKTOP doesn't? <Beineri> else_where: APPlicationS :-) <cgoncalves> Beineri: yes, and I'm "approving" it ;-) <Beineri> more of them <else_where> Beineri: got that, but are these KDE4 core applications, or extras ? <dirk> I agree, EXTRA might be a good term <Beineri> else_where: what's released as "KDE" upstream <rabauke> desktop only offers what is shipped with KDE and APPs any other applications. If not, I did not get it :) <dirk> though then again users might complain that digikam or amarok is extra (its central, right? ) <dirk> rabauke: DESKTOP is the kde released tarballs, APPS is stuff that is independently released * Beineri thinks this would have been a nice gobby session ;-) <rabauke> so I got it right! :D <else_where> ok, that makes sense to me now <else_where> thx <Beineri> btw, why must COMMUNITY, DESKTOP, APPS, BACKPORTS be capitalized? <dirk> Beineri: it doesn't .. <cgoncalves> dirk: then why not use the same term that KDE uses for non official Kapps (extragears)? <Beineri> cgoncalves: not everything is in extragears :-) <dirk> cgoncalves: would be an option, though the plan is that we'd also have stuff in there that is not from KDE extragear but from random sourceforge/whatever <dirk> another idea <Beineri> *sigh* <dirk> s,DESKTOP,BASE, and s,APPS,DESKTOP, <Beineri> dirk: what does make KStars BASE? :-) <cgoncalves> dirk: I like it :-) * Beineri not * cgoncalves kicks Beineri out of the channel <Beineri> cgoncalves: you got that concept of op wrong ;-) <cgoncalves> Beineri: I was just realizing that you still have that power :-P <dirk> Beineri: well, nothing, but it would match the patterns <else_where> dirk: i hope i'm not being difficult... but isn't random sourceforge/whatever for COMMUNITY, or am I mistaken on that one as well? <dirk> Beineri: because or KDE-DEFAULT pattern would be based on the :APPS repository (or :apps) <dirk> else_where: community means "packages from anyone" <Beineri> forget the pattern names :-) <Beineri> s <Beineri> s/APPS/EXTRA-APPS/ <dirk> else_where: the other repos are maintained by trusted novell employees and are supposed to ship a certain level of "will be maintained" <dirk> Beineri: s,APPS,ADDONS, ? <Beineri> else_where: APPS are automatic backports/links from Factory technically. <Beineri> any hope for a consensus today (MEST time ;-)? <Beineri> that's only roughly 2h left! <cgoncalves> nop, 1 hour and a half :-P <Beineri> otherweise I give me the AI to post the final list tomorrow on the mailing list ;-) <dirk> I think we agreed on the repository layout finally <cgoncalves> Beineri: we don't trust in you :-P <dirk> the only thing missing is the apps,extra-apps and the capitalisation <Beineri> dirk: let's try to recap it tomorrow in the office ;-) <dirk> we'll throw a coin on that <cgoncalves> dirk: just capitalize the first letter <dirk> Beineri: well, if we finalize the capitalisation I can already start putting 4.0.1 tarballs and 4.0.60 in it :) <dirk> although the buildservice doesn't look like it would be ready for doing something tonight <Beineri> keep KDE, STABLE and UNSTABLE capitalized, else only first letter :-) <cgoncalves> +1 * cgoncalves finally agrees with Beineri in something... <Beineri> cgoncalves: also my opinion about you? :-) <dirk> so KDE:KDE4:STABLE:Desktop, :Extra :Community and UNSTABLE <cgoncalves> Beineri: Heh :-P <cgoncalves> yup! <dirk> any topics left? <Beineri> yeah <dirk> we're hitting the 2 hour sound wall <Beineri> likely not that much fun <Beineri> * Bugzilla categories restructuring <cgoncalves> AHAHA <dirk> aaaah <cgoncalves> here it comes... more 2 hours :-P <dirk> I think we should label it like the buildservice repos <dirk> KDE3, KDE4 Desktop, KDE4 Extra, KDE4 Community <Beineri> openSUSE 11.0/Extras - great ;-) <dirk> only problem is that we leave out the unstable distinction <dirk> which is fine, because we don't accept bugreports for unstable: right? <Beineri> dirk: you know that we get most reports not for the build service repos but Factory/releases? <dirk> Beineri: doesn't matter, we can still use Desktop/Extra as if it would be a desktop issue or an issue of some random app <dirk> that way we can at least priotize one group over the other (where bugreports over some random app are clearly less important) <Beineri> dirk: and you don't to differ anymore between platform and application (wherever coming from) issues? <dirk> the other suggestion was to use KDE4, KDE4 Workspace and KDE4 Buildservice <dirk> Beineri: yes, the reason for that being that it is difficult for the bugreporter to judge if its a platform or an application issue <Beineri> dirk: there can be something left for us to-do ;-) <dirk> Beineri: sure, but thats like 50% of the work of fixing the bug: figuring out where the heck it comes from <dirk> triaging should be faster than that imho <dirk> well, just an opinion <dirk> if the reporter says "plasma crashes" it is dead clear that it is a KDE4 Desktop bug, no matter if its qt, kdelibs or something else * Beineri still thinks that don't need/want components for Community besides the general Bugzilla component for build service repos <dirk> Beineri: okay, leave out community then <dirk> so KDE3, KDE4 Desktop, KDE4 Extra (or Apps) <dirk> Beineri: we could also do KDE PIM, KDE (other) (SCNR) <Beineri> dirk: you see that by looking at the assignee ;-) <Beineri> dirk: what is "KDE4 Desktop"? also Apps from KDE release? <Beineri> if we move every bug clearly in an applicatino to KDE4 Applications (everything not platform+desktop shell) I'm fine <dirk> Beineri: good question, no strong opinion <dirk> Beineri: it could be anything other than kdelibs,kdebase-*, or it could be anything other than released kde* <Beineri> so also eg Konsole rendering bugs ;-) <Beineri> KPDF rendering bugs <dirk> so a konsole rendering bug would be a "KDE4 Extra" bug for you? <Beineri> (but not khtml rendering bugs) <dirk> even though konsole is in buildservice KDE4 Desktop repo? * Beineri would call it KDE 4 Applications :-) <Beineri> forget about the build service repositories, that was last hour ;-) <dirk> Beineri: okay, then KDE3, KDE4 Workspace, KDE4 Applications <Beineri> even someone using the build service repositories doesn't know from where zypper installs it * dirk will predict that people will try to file against "KDE PIM" then ;) <Beineri> dirk: fine for me <dirk> Beineri: only disadvantage is: KDE4 Applications doesn't say if its "one of the default apps" (aka important) or "some other random app only the reporter likes to use" <Beineri> dirk: work with priorities, keywords, subject tags or something else to differ that <dirk> Beineri: but then we could use that for all bugs (e.g. whiteboard "wrong-out-of-the-box", "kde3" "kde4" etc ;) ) <Beineri> who(m to) asks for the two new Bugzilla categories <dirk> sorry, I'm not helpful <dirk> Beineri: coolo or AJ can do it * Beineri will do <dirk> okay.. next topic <Beineri> * KDE 4.x for openSUSE 11.0 <Beineri> enough said? :-) * dirk votes to skip it today <Beineri> for now at least <Beineri> * General Q/A <Beineri> from the web: none :-) <Beineri> from the list: that nsplugin on 64bit thing :-| <dirk> buildservice limitation <Beineri> Build Service cannot build "base"-Packages (aka -32bit) yet <dirk> I'm not sure how to handle it <Beineri> but I'm also not sure that's correctly set-up within Factory/abuild <dirk> Beineri: well it is not <dirk> Beineri: it is a hack that we rm -f kdebase3-nsplugins.rpm from x86_64 before creating the CD <dirk> thats why it works <Beineri> iirc someone said the PDB flags have no function anymore <dirk> there is no support for doing something like that with the buildservice <dirk> so yast will always find the x86_64 version of nsplugins, and then do the wrong thing <dirk> we'd have to do something like disabling the build of the kdebase3-nsplugins package for x86_64 <dirk> which we can't do as its not a separate spec file <dirk> well, that would be the solution then (split out separate spec, disable build ) <dirk> (disable build only for x86_64) <dirk> then yast should be able to do the right thing <dirk> the othe solution woudl be to buildrequire the x86 version and repackage it under x86_64, but that also does not work with buildservice at the moment <dirk> next topic? :) <Bille> sleep. night all <Beineri> question from the channel <Beineri> ? <else_where> is there a simple workaround for the nsplugin x86_64 issue, aside from build service issues ? <Beineri> everyone asleep. success! :-) <dirk> else_where: see above ((split out separate spec, disable build for x86_64) * cgoncalves raises his hand and asks: can I finnaly go take my pizza? ;-) <dirk> cgoncalves: the one you put in the oven 2 hours ago? <else_where> dirk: so I'll need to build my own package for now ? <cgoncalves> dirk: heheh <dirk> else_where: you could do the splitting the spec part and mail it to beineri or me :) <Beineri> dirk: you will also need to have kdelibs4-32bit packages etc <dirk> Beineri: not really, yast should fallback to i686 <dirk> well, not automatically, but it asks for that afaik <dirk> proposal: discuss with MLS tomorrow <Beineri> Build Service 1.0 (scheduled for April) shall solve it :-| <Beineri> ok, so next time 13th February, what time? <dirk> 19:00 GMT imho <Beineri> that will be a long Hack Week day :-) <dirk> hack week means that you can get up whenever you want to ;) <Beineri> dirk: ah, preparing for Hack Week already? :-) <Beineri> dirk: well, see you tomorrow at lunch then... <dirk> Beineri: two of 3 days I was in the office at 4am where were you then? :) <mrdocs_> has the packaging weekend been scheduled ? <Beineri> mrdocs_: no <Beineri> world domination has been also deferred <mrdocs_> ok.. AI for next meeting ? <Beineri> dirk still has it <cb400f> Beineri: yes.. world domination will wait for 11.1 <mrdocs_> fair enough <Beineri> cb400f: so this is the year of the desktop? :-) <Beineri> goodbye everyone <dirk> Beineri: topic <cb400f> bye <else_where> cheers guys