KDE/Meetings/2007 12 12-transcript

From openSUSE

<dirk>·hello everyone.. leave the chocolate at the entrance..
<dirk>·agenda)
<dirk>·old action items (empty?)
<dirk>·KDE/KDE4 status
<dirk>·misc
<dirk>·I don't have anything else
<dirk>·Bille/Beineri: what are your old action items?
<Bille>·       agenda items?
<Bille>·       i've got one: kde 4 building guide report.
<Beineri>·     dirk: build service proposal split, kde 4 development patterns, report Packaging Day? :-)
<Beineri>·     qtjambi package
<dirk>·and the old ones we like to avoid: talks/workshops at upcoming events
<dirk>·team blogging day
<dirk>·okay..
<Beineri>·     and maybe going shortly through the single points of Challenges
<dirk>·agreed
<dirk>·so..
<dirk>·old action items
<dirk>·KDE4 / 11.0 status
<dirk>·kde4 building guide report·
<dirk>·Bug Day
<dirk>·KDE/Challenges
<dirk>·misc
<dirk>·* old action items
<dirk>·kde4 development patterns
<Beineri>·     The build service now makes all patterns shown up within YaST
<Beineri>·     there is a small bug still pending which causes it to display at top and not merged into distro categories though, mls knows about :-)
<Bille>·       cool
<dirk>·great
<stream_>·     Hello everyone
<dirk>·Bille, you tested them recently, any feedback?
<Bille>·       hi stream_. the meeting is underway
<Bille>·       dirk: the packages are good, the kde4-devel pattern needed some work but i have done that
<dirk>·you tested then for which distro? 10.3?
<benJIman>·    Beineri: you could make the ymps install pattern instead of all the individual packages then.
<Bille>·       10.3
<benJIman>·    Beineri: Then you have more flexibility with dependencies etc.
<Beineri>·     benJIman: do ymps support patterns?
<benJIman>·    Beineri: Yes, <item type="pattern>
<benJIman>·    With extra "
<Beineri>·     benJIman: but those .ymp in the build service are created from patterns automatically :-)
<benJIman>·    lol
<Bille>·       benJIman: i don't follow, could you explain?
<dirk>·AI: Beineri figure out who to blame for ymp's not referencing a pattern
<dirk>·okay?
<Bille>·       which patterns would nest?
<benJIman>·    dirk: Well until recently OBS didn't expose patterns to be visible to zypp
<benJIman>·    Bille: The YMPs can just reference the pattern rather than every individual package, if the pattern is in the repository.
<dirk>·benJIman: yep. I think we should expose them though
<benJIman>·    Then the YMPs are a lot smaller, and you have more control over dependencies etc.
<Bille>·       that sounds like it would fit well with dirk's dependency based repo layout.
<dirk>·* report packaging day
<dirk>·I think as a summary: many people showed up, which was great
<dirk>·about 6-7 signed up for the T-Shirt, and I triggered the shipping yesterday
<dirk>·there were many peope from SUSE popping up on irc and help new comers with their questions
<dirk>·- we ironed out some bugs in the packaging cookbook ;)
<dirk>·shortly talked about it in the opensuse status meeting, and they suggested that we should do it again
<dirk>·any other comment? any idea when we should do it again? somewhen in spring? or after 11.0 ?
<Bille>·       maybe before 11.0
<Bille>·       i predict we'll have a bunch of kde stuff to package once kde 4 is out.
<Beineri>·     when first kde4 apps are worth packaging :-)
<cyberorg>·    along with beta1 would be nice so we have new packages stable by 11
<dirk>·cyberorg: beta1 is end of april I think
<dirk>·AI: dirk schedule possible date for next packaging day
<dirk>·cyberorg: I would also have tended to repeat it around april, so that matches
<cyberorg>·    april is good time
<dirk>·* build service repo split/reorganisation
<dirk>·latest plan: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Meetings/Buildservice_Projects#Plan_D.29_Split_by_dependencies
<dirk>·by the surprising lack of feedback either noone cares or noone understands it ;)
<Beineri>·     :-), wait longer? Is there a need to reorganize this year?
<Bille>·       or everyone agrees
<Beineri>·     not that the only one who understands it now is on vacation ;-)
<dirk>·Beineri: well, I rather want to package qt 4.4 sooner than later, so I only want to do it once in the right repo
<dirk>·Beineri: and I believe that contacting everyone who links libqt4 atm and asking them to fix their config is going to take a while..
<Beineri>·     dirk: I you want to it this/next week fine, otherwise I would suggest to do it in January
<Beineri>·     s/I/if/
<dirk>·Beineri:doing it for the next kde4 weekly snapshot was my plan
<dirk>·* qtjambi package
<dirk>·Beineri: what is the news?
<Beineri>·     the news is, duncan is not here :-)
<Beineri>·     defer
<dirk>·okay.. next agenda item
<dirk>·* KDE4 RC2 feedback / 11.0 planning
<Beineri>·     KDE Four Live CD seems to be downloaded often
<dirk>·looks like Beineri's live cd was downloaded often, though not as often as RC1
<Bille>·       no suse specific feedback yet
<Beineri>·     and it has more packages than Kubuntu's (except of webkit)
<Bille>·       but plasma will need to get some config options in soon
<dirk>·Beineri: ah, there was a kubuntu live CD with KDE4?
<dirk>·s,there,that,
<Beineri>·     dirk: yeah, but no koffice on it eg
<Beineri>·     latest unofficial word about KDE4 on 11.0 is that we have to in March (around last alpha) about the default kde desktop
<benJIman>·    Bit of a shame neither qyoto or jambi have kde libs support yet.
<Beineri>·     +decide
<dirk>·yep.. its going to be difficult though ;(
<Beineri>·     and that we will likely (have to) develop two KDE cds (the KDE3 being dropped in case we go with KDE4 as default)
<dirk>·yes, I was thinking about that as well
<dirk>·with the amazing size growth of factory, I don't see any chance of a KDE3+4 CD anytime soon
<Beineri>·     +1 for lzma :-)
<dirk>·the non-KDE parts are around 440MB now
<Beineri>·     dirk: dunno if you noticed the other in the other channel, Mandriva is also discussing about switching to lzma compression
<dirk>·no, didn't see it
<dirk>·the lzma has currently two problems
<dirk>·a) there is a stable, but old codebase
<dirk>·and
<dirk>·b) there is an unstable but maintained codebase
<dirk>·the current patches that float around use a), while b) use a differetn file format, and ship a libz compatible library
<dirk>·so if we adopt a), we break again when we have to switch to b)
<Beineri>·     dirk: thread starting at http://archives.mandrivalinux.com/maintainers/2007-12/msg00000.php
<Beineri>·     current Challenges should cover all other KDE4 topics :-)
<dirk>·I think one of our main challenges is that to communicate that we mean it serious with KDE4 :)
<dirk>·it seems like we miss a lot of feedback because testers think "yeah, they probably know anyway, and its not declared stable anyway"
<dirk>·any suggestion how to tackle that?
<Beineri>·     we as in "KDE" or "openSUSE"?
<Bille>·       i see what you mean, dirk
<dirk>·Beineri: both
<benJIman>·    I don't think upstream kde really want bugs reporting yet though.
<Bille>·       benJIman: i disagree
<benJIman>·    Bille: It would just flood bugzilla.
<benJIman>·    Untill things are at least mostly working.
<dirk>·benJIman: its a two way thing, really. developers also need motivation
<dirk>·and motivation in form of bug reports is the smallest motivation one can get.. better than no feedback ;)
<dirk>·hi helio.. we were just discussing lzma + rpm.. :)
<heliocastro>· Beineri: you're welcome
<heliocastro>· dirk: ahh, !!
<benJIman>·    At the moment things are so broken, and in so much flux if you report every bug  half of them would dissappear within a few days ,a load of new ones would appear in same time, and the developers' time would all be wasted on triaging.
<Beineri>·     dirk: move that discussion to later/misc :-)
<Bille>·       benJIman: not as much as you think.  i've been reporting bugs like crazy and getting real resolutions people weren't aware of.
<dirk>·* kde4 building guide report
<dirk>·heliocastro: if you have time, later under misc.. :)
<Bille>·       so i have been testing the kde4-devel pattern
<Bille>·       and am writing a very easy guide to building specifically on opensuse
<heliocastro>· dirk: eheh, ok, i can watch it !
<Bille>·       the generic guide is too hard to follow
<dirk>·Bille: why do you want to write a separate one?
<dirk>·a separate one has to be maintained seperately
<dirk>·and the "install the depending packages from your distro" part should apply to any modern distro ;)
<Bille>·       dirk: the number of distro dependent choices make the guide hard to use. you have to read it very closely
<dirk>·Bille: I prefer one that you have to read over one that you don't have but doesn't work because it hasn't been fixed the last 8 months
<dirk>·I think the "building dbus" and friends sections should be weeded into a separate page, and thats about it
<dirk>·Bille, want to take the AI and work further on it?
<Bille>·       i think the learning curve is too steep for a lot of people to use. not everyone is as leet as benjiman.  anyway it's 1/2 written now so you can look at it tomorrow and see if you think building kde4 for dummie is a waste of time.
<Bille>·       dirk: that's a yes :)
<dirk>·Bille: well, dummies should use packages, IMHO
<dirk>·;)
<dirk>·* Bug Day
<Beineri>·     something general first, we will have kdelibs3 and kdebase3 10.3 online updates very soon now, right?
<dirk>·yep, with a new round following rather soon for the flash issue
<Beineri>·     that's more about screening all bug reports and making sure the important ones get fixed for 11.0
<Beineri>·     or reported upstream
<Beineri>·     dirk: you don't want to have updates delayed until flash is fixed (this week, no?)?
<dirk>·Beineri: no, they will come afterwards
<dirk>·I ohpe
<dirk>·hope
<dirk>·Beineri: yep, currently testing them.. perhaps I can fix the idle loop issue, then we can use it
<Beineri>·     ok, so we have "too many" open bug reports, and have to concentrate a bit more again on them. so the idea was to make a public "bug day" on this channel some day
<Beineri>·     asking everyone for help, any interest anyone? :-)
<dirk>·when?
<Beineri>·     also we should discuss how to categorize bugs before that day, how to differ between official package bugs, Build Service package bugs, KDE4 bugs eg
<dirk>·yep
<Beineri>·     keywords v strings in bug summary
<dirk>·do we want a KDE4 component in novell bugzilla?
<Bille>·       yes
<Beineri>·     somehow related, the build service gained a new feature today
<Bille>·       since we can't do it on a per-app basis.
<dirk>·Bille: why would you want a per-app tagging?
<Beineri>·     http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-buildservice/2007-12/msg00086.html
<Beineri>·     it sounds like we could set default assignees (or even components) for build service projects like KDE:KDE3 for Build Service interface
<dirk>·Beineri: oh, very cool
<Beineri>·     the same, everyone having a package within KDE:Community can define himself as Bugzilla contact for that package
<dirk>·Beineri: does it tag the bugreports specially?
<Bille>·       dirk: we can tag in subject, but we will be the ones doing that.  a kde 4 component is more likely to be used by bug reporters
<Beineri>·     dirk: the mail sounds like it can only assign to special assignee. didn't try yet or talk to abauer :-)
<dirk>·Beineri: okay.. we should try it and see if it adds repo/package name somewhere
<dirk>·that would be useful
<Beineri>·     dirk: I have no objection to KDE4 component in Bugzilla btw :-)
<Beineri>·     so, ask on mailing list if there is interest in Bug day and whether in-week day or week-end is preferred? :-)
<dirk>·Beineri: my sentiment is.. we're still KDE though
<dirk>·Beineri: and why only one component, when we could have multiple
<dirk>·perhaps KDE3 / KDE Apps /  KDE Platform / KDE Desktop
<Beineri>·     sounds like GNOME ;-)
<dirk>·AI Beineri: ask about bug day and figure out the week day
<dirk>·Beineri: yeah.. I really only miss the distinction for batching online updates
<dirk>·for the rest I don't care really
<dirk>·tagging is fine with me
<dirk>·so another component for kde4 specific bugs and a tagging scheme?
<Beineri>·     let's discuss on mailing list :-)
<dirk>·* KDE/Challenges
<Bille>·       i've got to go in 10 minutes
<Beineri>·     that's http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Challenges is anyone wonders
<dirk>·watch/scan build service home
<Beineri>·     if even
<dirk>·we should ask the buildservice people if we can script it..
<dirk>·AI: dirk figure out script for watching homes
<Beineri>·     that's one idea originating from Package Day
<dirk>·I'm skipping the promo topics today, okay?
<Bille>·       ok
<Beineri>·     "Package Qt Eclipse integration"?
<dirk>·GPLv3 compat relicensing stil in progress
<dirk>·Beineri: schedule it for the next packaging day?
<dirk>·or find time for it·
<dirk>·* one cd media
<dirk>·we've to talk to coolo/michl about how to proceed
<dirk>·imho we have to do a separate kde4 media
<Beineri>·     dirk: and Garry
<Bille>·       dirk: i thought the technical solutions in your blog are a good start
<dirk>·Beineri: indeed.·
<Bille>·       but i think organisationally we need to partition the media
<Beineri>·     dirk: let's trigger that tomorrow ;-)
<dirk>·Beineri: we should schedule a meeting with gary somewhen soon anyway.·
<Bille>·       so each major subsystem gets a quota, and we have a reason to push them back when they add 10mb new py-gtk bindings.
<Bille>·       or vice versa
<Bille>·       i'm sure gnome was also inconvenienced by that gimp bloat recently
<Beineri>·     Bille: that doesn't work, someone will win an override by PM anytime ;-)
<Bille>·       Beineri: maybe us :)
<dirk>·Bille: no, gnome panel has a python-gtk dependency
<Bille>·       dirk: just an example.
<dirk>·okay. two action items? one with gekker about 11.0/KDE4 plans and one with coolo michl?
<dirk>·who takes it?
<Beineri>·     jp allen ;-)
<dirk>·Beineri: you have to try jpallen to get his attention ;)
<dirk>·AI: dirk meeting gekker and coolo/michl
<dirk>·* Qt 4.4
<dirk>·I'm planning to do experimental overlay packages for KDE4:UNSTABLE:PLATFORM asap
<dirk>·I heard birds talk that TP is coming not that far away :)
<dirk>·(TP == technical preview)
<Bille>·       birds?  surely a more fantastic type of creatures' talk?
<Beineri>·     do trolls live on trees?
<dirk>·trolls are more agile than gnome's.. <huest>
<dirk>·anyway
<Bille>·       dirk: good work. anything else on 4.4?
<dirk>·no, trying to find something in KDE 4.0/4.1 section
<Beineri>·     any volunteer to package webkit? :-)
<Bille>·       oh, the pim planning is that there will be a post 4.0 non-akonadi based kontact.
<Beineri>·     dirk: should be easy, it's the largest section
<Bille>·       parallel there will be development of kontact's replacement out of whole cloth
<dirk>·I would suggest about the configuration/migration path
<dirk>·+= to talk
<dirk>·the open problems with the kde/kde4 split:
<dirk>·* config have to be migrated manually
<dirk>·should we use a tool for that (like migrate kicker settings to plasma? konqueror to dolphin?)
<dirk>·* kwallet is not available
<Beineri>·     shall we really care about such stuff?
<dirk>·because old kdewallet is under .kde
<dirk>·I would tend to patch that
<dirk>·the problem is that for kde3 apps to be able to access the new kwallet, we'd need some kind of dcop bridge in kded4
<Beineri>·     like pim data (including email), bookmarks, passwords, Kopete config
<Beineri>·     web history, cookies maybe
<Bille>·       i would also add we need better support for joe user to run 3 and 4 in parallel
<dirk>·Beineri: but do we only want one-time migration or support for both in parallel?
<Bille>·       because that use case precedes the migration
<Beineri>·     one-time
<Bille>·       dirk: parallel
<Bille>·       we're not ready for one-time, people will still want to use kde 3 apps when they find kde 4 stuff that annoys them
<Bille>·       so i have some scripts to reset the environment to run 3 pim apps cleanly under 4
<Bille>·       i need a way to do that per app launch though
<Bille>·       maybe something in kickoff-4 to set the environment when running a "/KDE3" app
<dirk>·Bille: which environment?
<Bille>·       dirk: KDEHOME and PATH
<Bille>·       one-time is too radical and leaves people no alternative
<Bille>·       they will get frustrated and curse KDE in generaly
<dirk>·uhm, one shouldn't set KDEHOME
<Bille>·       -y
<dirk>·the problem is that it is inherited to autolaunched daemons.. which is bad
<Beineri>·     Bille: there is more than one way (kickoff) to start an app :-)
<dirk>·perhaps that should be fixed
<dirk>·Bille: so in general you're saying that status quo is the best (keeping .kde and .kde4 separate)
<Bille>·       dirk: yes, then when that is solid, people can pick and choose what desktop they will start on any given day, and what mix of apps, then sort the migration
<Beineri>·     for the user it's better to have data not corrupted than data not migrated
<Bille>·       exactly
<Bille>·       anyway gotta go
<rabauke>·     I think so too. if you keep .kde you can always return to kde3
<rabauke>·     and trust me, a lot of people will try to use KDE 4.0 no matter what and want to go back afterwards because it is .0 and not meant to replace 3.5.x
<Bille>·       rabauke speaks the truth. i give him the name truthsayer.... and depart in the direction of the theatre.
<Beineri>·     and in some future version (let's say 11.2) will we move .kde4 back to .kde or keep it forever?
<dirk>·I guess we'd have to keep it forever if we keep it for 11.0
<Beineri>·     so migrating from other distros (by copying home) may not work as expected?
<dirk>·we could also patch kde3 to copy .kde into .kde3 and prefer that if available
<Beineri>·     sounds strange
<Beineri>·     either move everything when upgrading to 11.0 to .kde3 or don't do it
<Beineri>·     things
<dirk>·anything else we should take from KDE/Challenges?
<dirk>·otherwise I'd like to go to misc)
<Beineri>·     and we will have to fix it only until .3 to meet their predictions ;-)
<dirk>·I'd like to skip that topic for now for exactly that reason ;)
<rabauke>·     is this a meeting?
<Beineri>·     !topic
<rabauke>·     I did not get any mail on opensuse-kde
<Beineri>·     ok, let's keep the good things for next year :-)
<dirk>·rabauke: oh, indeed, I only posted it to opensuse-announce. my bad.·
<dirk>·* misc
<Beineri>·     rabauke: it's always every two weeks, so next on 2nd public holiday - uhm, wait :-)
<dirk>·yep, its a good misc topic
<dirk>·do we want to mvoe the next one to the 9th?
<rabauke>·     I am bad at remembering elapsed time
<Beineri>·     wait when project meetings start next year and choose "the other week"
<dirk>·or do we know if the project meeting slips by one week?
<dirk>·okay, lets target the 9th unless it would overlap with the project meeting
<Beineri>·     rabauke: http://news.opensuse.org/?ec3_ical
<dirk>·lzma/rpm
<dirk>·heliocastro: did mandriva switch already? do you use lzma payload compression via external app invocation or do you use the new liblzma?
<rabauke>·     Beineri: that link opens kalender and does not do anything
<Beineri>·     dirk: they are in a big fight over whether to switch or not afaik :-)
<heliocastro>· dirk: Not chnaged yet. There's a huge discussion thread, and if we changed will be liblzma
<Beineri>·     rabauke: it's a calendar, right :-)
<dirk>·heliocastro: okay, what I guessed. will you put any development into getting liblzma ready?
<rabauke>·     Beineri: I mean the kontact application. it just opens and does not display any meetings
<Beineri>·     rabauke: mhm, bug report to Bille_home :-)
<heliocastro>· Well, i can't say. Let me see with Per Oyvind, the guy behind all chnages
<rabauke>·     ok
<dirk>·heliocastro: okay.. I've informally talked with our rpm maintainer, and he doesn't have that much time for it
<heliocastro>· dirk: Pixel ?
<dirk>·though in order to get it for 11.0 we have to push it a little otherwise it won't be ready for toolchain freeze
<dirk>·heliocastro: mls
<heliocastro>· dirk: And if we change, as suicidal tendencies we have, probably will be before 20008.1
<heliocastro>· 2008.1
<heliocastro>· dirk: mls ?
<dirk>·Michael Schroeder
<heliocastro>· Ahh, misc..
<dirk>·the guy who wrote screen(1) but doesn't know how to use it ;)
<heliocastro>· No, the current maintainer is Pascal Rigaux ( pixel ) and Olivier Thauvin ( nanar )
<heliocastro>· Employee and main contrib consecutively
<heliocastro>· misc is the head of contrib side
<dirk>·heliocastro: ah, I was talking aobut the suse rpm maintainer, sorry for being unclear
<heliocastro>· dirk: Oh, ok
<dirk>·okay, lets close it for today.. see you next year! happy holidays!